JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

[louisa]

all
I think a huge point is the amount of the ransome in the letter and the apparent statement by Jon that he left paperwork that stated this amount where an intruder (while they were out) could have found it.

I have not been able to locate this statement of his in any "official" account though. I recently read the woodward book where she says he said this, but no official citation was given and her book is ridiculously biased in favor of the ramseys so I take it with a grain of salt.

can anyone locate any official police record where he is said this and/or follow up from the police to locate said paperwork?


if he lied about leaving the bonus amount lying around-huge red flag obviously.

Abby - A person who breaks into a house, especially with the intent to sexually molest, kidnap or murder somebody - will be in a highly tense frame of mind.

He wouldn't be relaxed enough to sit down and go through correspondence, not unless he was specifically looking for something., which he presumably wasn't.

The bonus amount, I think, is immaterial, and if anything, points to Patsy writing the note. She would have thought that $118,000 would be a massive amount to one of John's employees, who she probably regarded as 'peasants'. The amount probably just came to her because it was fresh in her mind.


And yes, John would have lied about that, as he did about a number of other things.

[Wickerman]

can anyone locate any official police record where he is said this and/or follow up from the police to locate said paperwork?

For what it's worth, and that isn't much. A poster by the name of Autumn wrote:

Actually the amount of the Christmas bonus was listed on all of John's 1996 pay stubs starting in Feb. Which I have heard were kept in John's study, so anyone with access to his study could have obtained that information.

I can't imagine the police not taking at least one of these payslips as evidence, or not at the very least mention this in one of their reports.
I have not seen John Ramsey say anything to that effect, not yet.

The actual bonus was $118,117.50 and, coincidentally, John's liabilities were given as $1,118,000 in 1996. Remarkably similar to the ransom demand.

Steve Thomas's book asserted: "A handwritten ledger reflected his increasing wealth over the years. Later I would find records showing that as of May 1, 1996, Ramsey had assets of $7,348,628, and a total net worth of $6,230,628. Total liabilites were an even 1,118,000, and the similarity of that figure to the ransom demand of $118,000 jumped out at me."

[Abby Normal]

For what it's worth, and that isn't much. A poster by the name of Autumn wrote:

Actually the amount of the Christmas bonus was listed on all of John's 1996 pay stubs starting in Feb. Which I have heard were kept in John's study, so anyone with access to his study could have obtained that information.

I can't imagine the police not taking at least one of these payslips as evidence, or not at the very least mention this in one of their reports.
I have not seen John Ramsey say anything to that effect, not yet.

The actual bonus was $118,117.50 and, coincidentally, John's liabilities were given as $1,118,000 in 1996. Remarkably similar to the ransom demand.

Steve Thomas's book asserted: "A handwritten ledger reflected his increasing wealth over the years. Later I would find records showing that as of May 1, 1996, Ramsey had assets of $7,348,628, and a total net worth of $6,230,628. Total liabilites were an even 1,118,000, and the similarity of that figure to the ransom demand of $118,000 jumped out at me."

Thanks wicker
I think the 118k is the key to the case.
Lou smit said follow the DNA, I agree but I would say follow the money-118k.
It should be the thing that leads to the killer, whether intruder or family.

[Wickerman]

"Where are the other examples which look similar?" Nowhere - because there nobody else's examples looked similar. Everyone else who gave samples was eliminated from the enquiry.

Like I said, there were others who's handwriting could not be eliminated.


Others Who Could Not Be Eliminated
Overview

Carnes Opinion. "Other experts believe the Ransom Note may have been authored by other people. In addition to Mrs. Ramsey, there were other individuals "under suspicion" who had their handwriting analyzed and who were not eliminated as the possible author of the Ransom Note. (SMF P 205; PSMF P 205.)" (Carnes 2003:30).



Hunter Deposition. Alex Hunter videotaped a deposition in the Wolf v. Ramsey case on November 27, 2001; according to Internet poster Jameson, parts of this deposition are under seal. However, the deposition was referenced in the videotaped deposition of Gideon Epstein May 17, 2002 which has been made public. (In this section, which begins on p. 165, line 22, the questioner is James Rawls
Q. And from Alex Hunter's perspective, you also understood that there were other individuals under suspicion who were not eliminated; correct?
A. That's what I understand, yes.
Q. Who were not eliminated as the author of the ransom note.
A. I understand that, right.


???? Henderson

According to Internet poster Athena
in PMPT, "p181 Henderson's handwriting similar and no DNA ever taken because Harmon was working on it and she left the case and no one followed up." (This appears to be a paraphrased reference to paperback version of Schiller).


Bill McReynolds

According to Internet poster Athena
"In his own book, Thomas states that McReynolds handwriting was similar but he did not believe he had anything to do with the murder because of his disability." (This appears to be a paraphrased reference; no specific page number provided).


Jeff Merrick

According to Internet poster Athena, "According to PMPT p166 - Merriman's [sic] handwriting was so close they believed he wrote the note but did not kill JBR" (This appears to be a paraphrased reference to paperback version of Schiller).


Glenn Meyers

According to Internet poster Athena, in PMPT "p182 - Glenn Meyers handwriting was was similiar;" (This appears to be a paraphrased reference to paperback version of Schiller).


Chris Wolf

LLoyd Cunningham Analysis. "For example, forensic document examiner Lloyd Cunningham cannot eliminate plaintiff Chris Wolf as the author of the Ransom Note. (SMF P 279; PSMF P 279.)" (Carnes 2003:30).

Wolf's Girlfriend. "Plaintiff's ex-girlfriend has also testified that she was "struck by how the handwriting in the note resembled plaintiff's own handwriting" and believes that he is the note's author. (J. Brungardt Aff. P 43.)" (Carnes 2003:30).

Editing Mark Used in RN. "Further, to the extent that the use of a single editing mark might suggest to plaintiff's experts that Mrs. Ramsey was the author, given her bachelor's degree in journalism, one should also note that plaintiff, himself, has a Masters' degree in journalism. (Id. P 13.)" (Carnes 2003:30).

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682528/Who%20Wrote%20the%20Ransom%20Note#OthersWhoCouldNotBeEliminated

Patsy Ramsey was NOT the only one who could not be eliminated as the letter writer.

[louisa]

ORIGINAL RANSOM NOTE





PATSY'S HANDWRITING SAMPLE

[louisa]

You quote Alex Hunter !! The DA who told the world that the Grand Jury had voted not to indict the Ramseys when, in fact, the opposite was true? He got them off the hook on that lie.

As for Carnes, another DA (regarding the Ramsey case) who is no better than her predecessor. Ask yourself why these people desperately wanted the Ramseys off the hook.


I had hoped we were not going to get into all this handwriting business again, but as you insist........


At Least 10 Professionals Concluded Patsy Was Author

While an original document is preferable for analysis, in this case it was not necessary. This particular ransom note was written with a thick felt tip pen which, even on an original document, will give no indication of the pressure used by the writer.

For information: Chet Ubowski was the only Forensic Document Examiner who testified before the Grand Jury. He was chosen because he was considered to be the foremost leader in the field of document analysis

Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation

Ubowski, who had made the early discovery that Patsy’s handwriting was consistent with the ransom note on twenty-four of the twenty-six alphabet letters stated “I believe she wrote it.”

"We had noticed earlier that in prehomicide writings, Patsy consistently used the manuscript “a,” but posthomicide, it disappeared from her samples of writing. This was a major find, for it looked as if she was consciously changing her lettering. She had more handwriting styles than a class of sixth graders and was seemingly able to change as easily as turning on and off different computer fonts. I thought about how big a mistake it had been to provide the defense lawyers with a copy of the note. A suspect could study it prior to giving writing samples and consciously avoid certain characteristics, such as the style of writing the first letter of the alphabet".

Gideon Epstein - Forensic Document Examiner

"Based on the presently available documents, there are strong indications that Patsy Ramsey is the author of the ransom note".

David S. Liebman - Certified Document Examiner

"There are far too many similarities and consistencies revealed in the handwriting of Patsy Ramsey and the ransom note for it to be coincidence. In light of the number of comparisons and similarities between Patsy Ramsey and the ransom note writer the chances of a third party also sharing the same characteristics is astronomical. In my professional opinion Patsy Ramsey is the ransom note writer".

Tom Miller, Attorney, Court Qualified Expert Witness in Questioned Documents

"Based upon available exemplars, compared to the purposed "ransom note" in the JonBenet Ramsey murder, the handwriting is probably that of Patsy Ramsey".

Cina L. Wong - Certified Document Examiner

"I have made a careful examination and comparison of the 'ransom note' and the handwriting of Patsy Ramsey. I have reached the conclusion that the handwritings and the 'ransom note' were written by the same person. It is my professional opinion that Patsy Ramsey is the writer of the 'ransom note'".

Larry F. Ziegler - Forensic Document Examiner

"It was determined, and is still determined by myself that Patsy Ramsey is the writer of the ransom note".

Leonard Speckin, Forensic Document Examiner

"Leonard Speckin, a private forensic document examiner, concluded that differences between the writing of Mrs. Ramsey's handwriting and the author of the Ransom Note prevented him from identifying Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note, but he was unable to eliminate her. (SMF P 198; PSMF P 198.)" (Carnes 2003:26, note 14).

Speckin's report stated: "When I compare the handwriting habits of Patsy Ramsey with those in the questioned ransom note, there exists agreement to the extent that some of her individual letter formations and letter combinations do appear in the ransom note." (Epstein Deposition (p. 138:9-. However, Speckin reportedly was ready to testify that "there was only an infinitesimal chance that some random intruder would have handwriting characteristics so remarkably similar to those of a parent sleeping upstairs"

[AmericanSherlock]

while i can't with confidence theorize exactly what happened, one thing is clear to me--that Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note.

[Harry D]

Wickerman, you mentioned another case about an intruder who broke into a house and raped a young girl. I've read about that one before on the JBR Topix board. Do you think we are dealing with a similar case here, when you take into consideration the ransom letter? It's the letter that gives me pause about this being your typical intruder. Unless there really was a plan to abduct JBR, which was aborted or bungled in some way, there's no reason for this person to write it. Not unless he had an axe to grind with John Ramsey for some reason, which suggests a more personal motive to the crime. I think it's possible that JBR was killed by an intruder whilst Patsy wrote the letter, but admittedly I have a hard time trying to reconcile the two.

[Abby Normal]

Like I said, there were others who's handwriting could not be eliminated.


Others Who Could Not Be Eliminated
Overview

Carnes Opinion. "Other experts believe the Ransom Note may have been authored by other people. In addition to Mrs. Ramsey, there were other individuals "under suspicion" who had their handwriting analyzed and who were not eliminated as the possible author of the Ransom Note. (SMF P 205; PSMF P 205.)" (Carnes 2003:30).



Hunter Deposition. Alex Hunter videotaped a deposition in the Wolf v. Ramsey case on November 27, 2001; according to Internet poster Jameson, parts of this deposition are under seal. However, the deposition was referenced in the videotaped deposition of Gideon Epstein May 17, 2002 which has been made public. (In this section, which begins on p. 165, line 22, the questioner is James Rawls
Q. And from Alex Hunter's perspective, you also understood that there were other individuals under suspicion who were not eliminated; correct?
A. That's what I understand, yes.
Q. Who were not eliminated as the author of the ransom note.
A. I understand that, right.


???? Henderson

According to Internet poster Athena
in PMPT, "p181 Henderson's handwriting similar and no DNA ever taken because Harmon was working on it and she left the case and no one followed up." (This appears to be a paraphrased reference to paperback version of Schiller).


Bill McReynolds

According to Internet poster Athena
"In his own book, Thomas states that McReynolds handwriting was similar but he did not believe he had anything to do with the murder because of his disability." (This appears to be a paraphrased reference; no specific page number provided).


Jeff Merrick

According to Internet poster Athena, "According to PMPT p166 - Merriman's [sic] handwriting was so close they believed he wrote the note but did not kill JBR" (This appears to be a paraphrased reference to paperback version of Schiller).


Glenn Meyers

According to Internet poster Athena, in PMPT "p182 - Glenn Meyers handwriting was was similiar;" (This appears to be a paraphrased reference to paperback version of Schiller).


Chris Wolf

LLoyd Cunningham Analysis. "For example, forensic document examiner Lloyd Cunningham cannot eliminate plaintiff Chris Wolf as the author of the Ransom Note. (SMF P 279; PSMF P 279.)" (Carnes 2003:30).

Wolf's Girlfriend. "Plaintiff's ex-girlfriend has also testified that she was "struck by how the handwriting in the note resembled plaintiff's own handwriting" and believes that he is the note's author. (J. Brungardt Aff. P 43.)" (Carnes 2003:30).

Editing Mark Used in RN. "Further, to the extent that the use of a single editing mark might suggest to plaintiff's experts that Mrs. Ramsey was the author, given her bachelor's degree in journalism, one should also note that plaintiff, himself, has a Masters' degree in journalism. (Id. P 13.)" (Carnes 2003:30).

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682528/Who%20Wrote%20the%20Ransom%20Note#OthersWhoCouldNotBeEliminated

Patsy Ramsey was NOT the only one who could not be eliminated as the letter writer.

who is this Athena person and who are all these people she alludes too?

[Abby Normal]

Wickerman, you mentioned another case about an intruder who broke into a house and raped a young girl. I've read about that one before on the JBR Topix board. Do you think we are dealing with a similar case here, when you take into consideration the ransom letter? It's the letter that gives me pause about this being your typical intruder. Unless there really was a plan to abduct JBR, which was aborted or bungled in some way, there's no reason for this person to write it. Not unless he had an axe to grind with John Ramsey for some reason, which suggests a more personal motive to the crime. I think it's possible that JBR was killed by an intruder whilst Patsy wrote the letter, but admittedly I have a hard time trying to reconcile the two.

hey that was my idea!!!

[louisa]

Abby - That Athena person is simply some anonymous internet poster, on an obscure forum

[louisa]

Wickerman, you mentioned another case about an intruder who broke into a house and raped a young girl. I've read about that one before on the JBR Topix board. Do you think we are dealing with a similar case here, when you take into consideration the ransom letter? It's the letter that gives me pause about this being your typical intruder. Unless there really was a plan to abduct JBR, which was aborted or bungled in some way, there's no reason for this person to write it. Not unless he had an axe to grind with John Ramsey for some reason, which suggests a more personal motive to the crime. I think it's possible that JBR was killed by an intruder whilst Patsy wrote the letter, but admittedly I have a hard time trying to reconcile the two.

Harry - Why would Patsy write a ransom note if JB was killed by an intruder?

These convoluted conspiracy theories are doing my head in!


And there is no point in trying to find similarities between the JonBenet case and any other, because there has been no other child molester, before or after, who is also a kidnapper and a murderer!

JonBenet WAS NOT RAPED! Wickerman thinks she was and he is wrong. I have asked him to find anything on the internet that says she was raped and so far he has not come up with anything.

[louisa]

while i can't with confidence theorize exactly what happened, one thing is clear to me--that Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note.

Thanks! Everyone else have got their heads in the sand.

[Pcdunn]

Fact 1, - Pathologists are divided on when the head wound was committed.
Fact 2, - Semen is not always left at a scene of an intruder rape/molestation.
Fact 3, - Rape/molestation does occur in the home of the victim while family members are asleep.
Fact 4, - Ramsey crime scene did contain unidentified human hair on blanket, brown fibers, animal hairs, footprints in basement, items and objects not owned by the Ramsey's.

Like it, or not.

Yes, and there was saliva found on JBR's underpants NOT matched to a Ramsey family member. It's mentioned in the report posted earlier in this thread. A detective (armchair or otherwise) needs to consider ALL evidence, not ignore items that don't suit his/her pet theory.

[AmericanSherlock]

Thanks! Everyone else have got their heads in the sand.

agreed, and if she wrote it, it then follows she was either guilty or complicit in what happened. I think very likely John was at least complicit. There are a few scenarios that are possible where the ramseys are not guilty, but covering for someone else, although these are unlikely to me. (she was killed in some sex game gone wrong somewhere else that the ramseys knew about, meaning they were involved in the seedy underworld of padeophilia).

but still think much more likely she was killed accidentally by patsy. the simplest explanation with the least leaps required imo.