JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

[Ginger]

Placing her on the blanket suggests one of two things to me, easier to move her around sliding across the floor or, an initial intention of carrying her out of the house.

Wrapping her tightly in the blanket looks as much as anything like making her easy to carry, dead or unconscious. You don't have arms and legs flopping about, plus, if you take her outside, no-one really pays a lot of attention to someone sneaking an awkward bundle in or out of a house on Christmas.

[Wickerman]

Just guessing - To get rid of it? Most killers leave their victims out in the open.

But we're talking about the Ramseys. They maybe would not have wished the body of their daughter to be lying out somewhere. A protective thing, even though she's dead.

That's why I wondered what you meant.

Placing her on the blanket suggests one of two things to me, easier to move her around sliding across the floor or, an initial intention of carrying her out of the house.
The Wine Cellar seems to be the furthest out of the way room to hide something.

[Wickerman]

Perhaps, maybe, could have.

But it wasn't.

And of course, you would know.
Silly me.

A disgruntled employee would not have written a three page idiotic note. The fact he does not name Patsy was her way of being 'impersonal' as she was the writer.

John Ramsey named every single one of his employees as possible suspects and they were all investigated. None of them were particularly happy after that, as you can imagine.

Peter Sutcliffe was interviewed nine times, before he was caught.

I would certainly agree that the vast majority of burglaries are committed by outsiders - but I am going to need some verification that in-home sexual assaults are mainly committed by outsiders. I happen to believe the opposite is true.

Yes, I don't know what happened there, I meant to write "break-in sexual assaults".

[Wickerman]

Who is "we"? Just curious.

Readers of the book.

In the police interviews Patsy states that she only put a sheet on JB's bed that night because she was always hot.

I'll try and find her exact words and post them later.

Thanks.

The blanket was in the tumble drier, one floor up. Linda Hoffman Pugh saw it in there the day before.

The day before...?
So, her statement on the location of that blanket on the 25/6th is not relevant then, is it.

[louisa]

It wouldn't matter if they "looked guilty", they already were the principal targets. If there was something on those clothes they'd be better destroying them.
Laundering the clothes doesn't remove the fibers

You're an expert on laundry now? We don't know if they were washed or dry cleaned. I don't think the files tell us. But evidence would have been removed in the laundering.

How would it look to the Police, and the rest of the world, if they admitted the Ramseys had destroyed the clothes they had been wearing that night? It would have been a pretty damning thing to do.

Yes, and Patsy is said to have sat on that blanket, on JB's bed before tucking her in.

That's funny because I thought John carried JB up to bed that night? I may be wrong about that, I'll look it up.

I know Patsy didn't tuck JB in because she says specifically that she never tucked the covers in because JB used to get very hot during the night.

This piece of melted adhesive was noticed while JB lay on the living room floor

Who noticed it?
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[Wickerman]

Hi Pat,

Is this the mark that Wicksy referred to in an earlier post, reported by a police sheriff who had seen a photo, because, as far as I know, only Meyer and Trujillo were at the autopsy.

I think you are referring to the small piece of melted adhesive found covering the lower 'mark' of the two on her cheek.
Evidence more or less confirming something very hot caused one of those 'marks'.
This piece of melted adhesive was noticed while JB lay on the living room floor, not at the autopsy. The photo that shows this piece was taken in the house.

Judging by the photo, the mark on JB's face looks quite red, one mark is a larger mark than the other. How hard would a toy train track need to be pushed into flesh to make marks like that?
Thanks.

Those points on a piece of train track are pointed and sharp.
The mark on the skin was an, "abrasion", not a puncture. The skin was not pierced at that point.

I'm not so sure Smit had found the correct device. He never considered the cattle prong, which comes in a pistol-grip design just like the stun-gun.

[louisa]

Why would anyone put a dead body 'outside' where someone else can see it?

That doesn't make any sense.

Just guessing - To get rid of it? Most killers leave their victims out in the open.

But we're talking about the Ramseys. They maybe would not have wished the body of their daughter to be lying out somewhere. A protective thing, even though she's dead.

A chosen interpretation will always point in the direction you require.
Typically, as above, there is often more than one interpretation.

As long as you remember that.
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[Wickerman]

JB was not hit with a piece of train track.

I'd be interested in what you think caused those marks.

The Ramseys walked out of the house the day after the murder wearing the same clothes they had been wearing at the party the day before. In itself very strange, when they said they had been asleep in bed all night.

The police kept asking for the clothes so they could be forensically analysed but when they eventually received them they found the clothes had been laundered.

Yes, I'm familiar with the story.
It wouldn't matter if they "looked guilty", they already were the principal targets. If there was something on those clothes they'd be better destroying them.
Laundering the clothes doesn't remove the fibers

(Fibres that had been found on the sticky part of the duct tape were found to come from the red and black jacket that Patsy had been wearing the night before).

Yes, and Patsy is said to have sat on that blanket, on JB's bed before tucking her in.

[louisa]

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The note also did not name Patsy, it was aimed at John & his business. Therefore, a disgruntled employee, or someone who did not agree with his business dealings could easily be responsible.

Perhaps, maybe, could have.

But it wasn't.

A disgruntled employee would not have written a three page idiotic note. The fact he does not name Patsy was her way of being 'impersonal' as she was the writer.

John Ramsey named every single one of his employees as possible suspects and they were all investigated. None of them were particularly happy after that, as you can imagine.

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The vast majority of burglaries, and in-home sexual assaults are committed by outsiders.

I would certainly agree that the vast majority of burglaries are committed by outsiders - but I am going to need some verification that in-home sexual assaults are mainly committed by outsiders. I happen to believe the opposite is true.

[Wickerman]

CASKU (Child Abduction and Serial Killer Unit of the FBI). Their findings:


2. They had never seen anything like the ransom note. Kidnapping demands are usually terse, such as “We have your kid. A million dollars. Will call you.” From a kidnapper’s point of view, the fewer words, the less police have to go on.

3. The note was written in the home, after the murder, and indicated panic. Ransom notes are normally written prior to the crime, usually proofread, and not written by hand, in order to disguise the authorship.

4. The crime was criminally unsophisticated: The child was left on the premises, $118,000 was a ridiculously small amount in relation to the Ramsey’s wealth, the description of the accomplices as “gentlemen,” and the concept of a ransom delivery where one would be “scanned for electronic devices.” Kidnappers prefer isolated drops for ransom delivery, not a face-to-face meeting.

Yes, but that only suggests the criminal has never done this type of crime before, one involving a ransom demand.
It still doesn't point to the Ramsey's in particular.

5. An absence of strong language and anger, and JonBenet was never referred to by name, thus depersonalizing her to the offender. The intelligent wording suggested an educated writer who had some exposure to the South, as shown by the reference to “southern common sense.”

Well, Chris Wolf was a Journalist - to name one possibility.
The note also did not name Patsy, it was aimed at John & his business. Therefore, a disgruntled employee, or someone who did not agree with his business dealings could easily be responsible.

6. The crime was an incredibly risky one for an outsider to undertake, and was committed by someone who had a high degree of comfort inside the home. The note was created to misdirect law enforcement and focus attention elsewhere and was a cathartic act that allowed the offender to “undo” the murder in one’s own mind.

The vast majority of burglaries, and in-home sexual assaults are committed by outsiders.

7. Placing JonBenet in the basement was consistent with a parent not wanting to put the body outside in the winter elements.

Why would anyone put a dead body 'outside' where someone else can see it?
That doesn't make any sense.

8. The ligatures indicated staging rather than control, and the garrote was used from behind so the killer could avoid eye contact, typical of someone who cares for the victim. They had the gut feeling that no one intended to kill this child.

All garotted victims are attacked from the behind.
You could just as easily claim she was garrotted from behind so she couldn't scratch the assailant - meaning that indicates she 'must' have been alive.
Because something sounds logical doesn't mean it is correct.

9. Conclusion: The staging, evidence, and totality of the case pointed in one direction --this was not the act of an intruder. There had never been a kidnapping attempt.

A chosen interpretation will always point in the direction you require.
Typically, as above, there is often more than one interpretation.

[louisa]

This article has some info on the CBS documentary, including mention of the train track mark. I recall them saying it was shallow and small, not wide enough to have been made by Smit's theorized taser.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/case-jonbenet-ramsey-investigators-theory-brother-burke-ramsey-930957

This link to the CBS site has both episodes of the doc available for viewing.

http://www.cbs.com/shows/the-case-of-jonbenet-ramsey/

Thanks for those links Pat, I'll have to read them tomorrow. It's quite late here in London - 23.13pm - My eyes are closing.

The link that you gave to the urine stain is a chat forum.

Is there nothing in any official documents about it?
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[Pcdunn]

Hi Pat,

Is this the mark that Wicksy referred to in an earlier post, reported by a police sheriff who had seen a photo, because, as far as I know, only Meyer and Trujillo were at the autopsy.

Judging by the photo, the mark on JB's face looks quite red, one mark is a larger mark than the other. How hard would a toy train track need to be pushed into flesh to make marks like that?


Thanks.

This article has some info on the CBS documentary, including mention of the train track mark. I recall them saying it was shallow and small, not wide enough to have been made by Smit's theorized taser.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/case-jonbenet-ramsey-investigators-theory-brother-burke-ramsey-930957

This link to the CBS site has both episodes of the doc available for viewing.

http://www.cbs.com/shows/the-case-of-jonbenet-ramsey/

[Pcdunn]

Re: urine stain-- found this at Websleuths (see post 318):
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...8-2&p=12827768

[louisa]

?
We also read that Patsy brought the blanket into JB's room and put it on her bed, then sat on it beside JB on the night in question. Therefore, fibers from Patsy's clothing would be transferred to that blanket at that time.

Who is "we"? Just curious.

In the police interviews Patsy states that she only put a sheet on JB's bed that night because she was always hot.

I'll try and find her exact words and post them later.

That blanket could easily have been put inside that suitcase that night.
Obviously Patsy will not remember what was in it if she didn't put anything in it.
Perhaps, someone else did?

The blanket was in the tumble drier, one floor up. Linda Hoffman Pugh saw it in there the day before.
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[Wickerman]

Can you show me a link to this 'urine stain'? JB was hardly likely to have been murdered OUTSIDE of the room where she was found.

I'm sure I read it in Kolar's book, but it does appear in Whitson's, but as you requested a link, then here is one:

2. Hallway Outside Wine Cellar Room. There was a urine stain on the floor immediately outside that room, and a few feet away was the paint tote containing the remaining piece of the paintbrush used for a garrote; small bits of paintbrush handle also were found at the same location, suggesting this is where the garrotte was made. Jameson asserts "most investigators" believe this is the area in which she was killed.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682481/Interpreting%20the%20Evidence

Well I will address them for you......(I've done so before but I will do so again)

The blanket had been in the tumble drier outside JB's bedroom up on the first floor (according to the housekeeper)

I'm sure it may have been, but when?
We also read that Patsy brought the blanket into JB's room and put it on her bed, then sat on it beside JB on the night in question. Therefore, fibers from Patsy's clothing would be transferred to that blanket at that time.

If a kidnapper was going to "carry her out of the house" He would have done so before killing her. (We've been through all this before)

That depends who killed her, surely?
IF, the staging plan changed, from murder to a kidnapping, then it only seems reasonable one of them may have considered removing the body from the house.

The suitcase is just a red herring. It contained old toys and junk that Patsy intended to give to the thrift store.

But that is only your conclusion, not a fact.
That's the way you prefer to interpret it.

When interviewed she seemed uncertain as to what the case contained (she had probably forgotten) and shrugged when told it contained those old toys and things, saying she couldn't remember.

I'm looking for links rather than the books that do not have adequate index.

"The suitcase contained a pillow sham, duvet and Dr. Seuss book. These items belonged to defendants, but they have indicated that the items were not normally stored in the suitcase. (SMF P 146; PSMF P 146.) A lab report indicated that fibers from the sham and duvet were found on the shirt that JonBenet was wearing when she was found in the wine cellar. (SMF P 147; PSMF P 147.)" (Carnes 2003:Note 32).

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682468/Evidence%20of%20an%20Intruder

That blanket could easily have been put inside that suitcase that night.
Obviously Patsy will not remember what was in it if she didn't put anything in it.
Perhaps, someone else did?