JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

[Abby Normal]

Anyone get the impression none of the three Ramseys did it but John & Patsy knew who did?

fleetingly but no. if it wasn't them they would definitely point the finger, they already had to police about some of there closest friends.

[Pcdunn]

Anyone get the impression none of the three Ramseys did it but John & Patsy knew who did?

That's a possibility. Patsy said, "I didn't do it, John didn't do it, and we don't know who did!" John, on the other hand, named Bill McReynolds, Fleet and Priscilla White (he thought the letter was in a woman's handwriting, so he thought Priscilla was more likely), and made the odd statement that he had never seen anything in Patsy that would lead him to think she could do something like this-- then added, as an afterthought, "Or Burke". Huh?!

I've heard something vague about John's older son from an earlier marriage, John Jr., being suspected, but do not know details.

[DirectorDave]

I agree Abby...while I don't think where the note was placed in the house is all that significant the fact it was left at all is not consistent with an intruder theory.

[Abby Normal]

I agree Abby...while I don't think where the note was placed in the house is all that significant the fact it was left at all is not consistent with an intruder theory.

agree. but obviously if the ramseys did it they wanted everyone to think it was.

[Wickerman]

If she had said she found it on a desk or a worktop (where there lay a few other pieces of paper and clutter) she wouldn't be able to say, with any conviction, she had found it IMMEDIATELY she came downstairs.

Why does she have to find it "immediately"?
Why not.." I went to make coffee and found this on the counter...."

Saying she found it immediately is not relevant to whether the story is believable.


I've watched several interviews with John & Patsy, both those made around the time and those made later.

Assuming the Ramsey's collaborated to fabricate evidence, as many believe, I have to say what sticks out in my mind is John is the thinker, of course he's the successful business man. John is the reserved one, he speaks with caution, always being mindful of what he says. John is a dot-the-I's, and cross-the-Tees, type person, methodical and careful. John is the one in control.
Patsy is the emotional one, she wears her heart on her sleeve, she can be an emotional wreck when things go bad. Pasty is the type of person who needs a pillar to lean on, John is her pillar. Patsy is a follower while John is a leader.

It makes no sense to me to have Patsy write a ransom note, that is John's job. John is the one who will sit down and consider very carefully what needs to be written to keep it brief and concise without giving too much away.

Pointing the finger at Patsy as the author, and bearing in mind she is a remote contender, not a strong contender, does not take into account their individual personalities - Patsy simply is not a "Ransom letter" writer, she doesn't have it in her, especially when John is there who is well capable to the task.

My view then is, if John did not write it - and I understand he was definitely ruled out, then neither of them wrote it.

[AmericanSherlock]

Anyone get the impression none of the three Ramseys did it but John & Patsy knew who did?

yes, that's a possibility. There is something odd about this case where both ways of looking at it (an intruder theory) and an inside job (ramseys did it end of story) don't quite jibe with the facts.

I think it's much more likely that the parents alone are guilty than the intruder theory, though.

[Wickerman]

Killer gets in house while they are out, familiarized himself when inside, finding out where she sleeps and everyone's room, the lay out of the house, writes the note and waits until they come home and everyone's asleep.

Hi Abby, yes thats quite plausible.

First problem. Where does he put the note at this point? Puts it in his bag, brings downstairs somewheres? It wasnt folded so he didn't fold up and put in his pocket.

It's a detail I had not considered. I'm sure most intruders would fold it up and put it in their pocket, but this one didn't, so where did he put it?
Perhaps he didn't tear the pages off the pad, he left the pages still on the pad and took the pad with him.

One detail we do not appear to recognise is, the letter repeatedly mentions "We", were there two intruders?

Ok, lets adjust this sequence....the intruder(s) broke in while the family were out. He/they lay in wait but do not write a ransom note.
The family arrive home, and within an hour or so they are all upstairs in bed leaving the bowl of pineapple & milk on the counter.

One of them decides to write the ransom note, while the other heads off upstairs to get JonBenet, the kidnapper comes down the back stairs with JonBenet and brings her to the kitchen, she is given some pineapple, then they both head to the basement while the other intruder finished the ransom note and left the pages on the stairs, then he follows a few minutes later to the basement.

The ransom note is left on the stairs before some awkward incident transpired in the basement where JonBenet is first tortured, then murdered - he/they leave out the window.

So he sneakers upstairs and gets her out of bed and brings her in the basement. Does he put it on the back steps at this point? Before he even gets her out. Is it in his hand as he's getting her downstairs? Seems unlikely. Wouldn't he have the taser, flashlight etc. in his hands as well as possibly carrying her?

There were a few things to carry, the duct tape, taser(?), flashlight, and something to carry her out in. I can't imagine he/they intended to walk her out the front door, nor push her up through the basement window.
So how did they intend to get her out of the house?
Did they bring something to knock her out, I mean like chloroform or something of that nature, and carry her out in a sports bag, or something similar?
Maybe they thought the taser would knock her out, but it didn't.
I tend to think the taser was applied when she was in the basement, for a few reason's.

Thanks for stepping through this in sequence, it does hi-lite some problems.

[Wickerman]

yes, that's a possibility. There is something odd about this case where both ways of looking at it (an intruder theory) and an inside job (ramseys did it end of story) don't quite jibe with the facts.

I think it's much more likely that the parents alone are guilty than the intruder theory, though.

That's exactly the problem isn't it, some of the evidence is more consistent with one theory, and some with the other theory. At present there is no single theory that accounts for all the evidence.

If all three Ramsey's are the only contenders I still say Burke is the prime suspect. But, if he did hit JonBenet over the head then the Ramsey's took a huge risk allowing the authorities to interview Burke - which tends to speak against his culpability in my view.

Patsy couldn't do this even over bedwetting, though I'm not so sure bedwetting is a valid motive.

John Ramsey has been accused of molesting JonBenet, even though the DNA evidence in her clothing vindicated him. And, her doctor asserted no evidence of a history of sexual molesting.
If John Ramsey had any history of pedophilia, in all the years before the murder, and the 20 years after the murder, we should expect reporters/authors looking for 'the dirt' on him, would have found something by now.
There is absolutely nothing to substantiate such a contemptible accusation.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby, yes thats quite plausible.



It's a detail I had not considered. I'm sure most intruders would fold it up and put it in their pocket, but this one didn't, so where did he put it?
Perhaps he didn't tear the pages off the pad, he left the pages still on the pad and took the pad with him.

One detail we do not appear to recognise is, the letter repeatedly mentions "We", were there two intruders?

Ok, lets adjust this sequence....the intruder(s) broke in while the family were out. He/they lay in wait but do not write a ransom note.
The family arrive home, and within an hour or so they are all upstairs in bed leaving the bowl of pineapple & milk on the counter.

One of them decides to write the ransom note, while the other heads off upstairs to get JonBenet, the kidnapper comes down the back stairs with JonBenet and brings her to the kitchen, she is given some pineapple, then they both head to the basement while the other intruder finished the ransom note and left the pages on the stairs, then he follows a few minutes later to the basement.

The ransom note is left on the stairs before some awkward incident transpired in the basement where JonBenet is first tortured, then murdered - he/they leave out the window.



There were a few things to carry, the duct tape, taser(?), flashlight, and something to carry her out in. I can't imagine he/they intended to walk her out the front door, nor push her up through the basement window.
So how did they intend to get her out of the house?
Did they bring something to knock her out, I mean like chloroform or something of that nature, and carry her out in a sports bag, or something similar?
Maybe they thought the taser would knock her out, but it didn't.
I tend to think the taser was applied when she was in the basement, for a few reason's.

Thanks for stepping through this in sequence, it does hi-lite some problems.

Hi wick
I've never seriously considered two intruders. If there was two involved,perhaps one stayed outside in a getaway car.

I also don't think kidnapping for ransom was preplanned either. I think the intruder only came up with when he was in the house waiting around for them to return.

I think the original intent was abduction, torture perhaps sexual assault and murder.

[Wickerman]

Just in case anyone has not seen this, the Autopsy Report on JonBenet.

http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/jonbenet_ramsey/jonbenet_ramsey_autopsy.pdf

[Pcdunn]

Just in case anyone has not seen this, the Autopsy Report on JonBenet.

http://hosted.ap.org/specials/intera...ey_autopsy.pdf

That is very interesting, thanks for the link, Wickerman.

On the CBS documentary, they said the small marks on her leg were too small to be from a taser, and suggested the HO train track sections, which were in the basement "Train room", as well as Burke's room. They felt there was no blood from the wounds, and that the marks were inflicted after death.

I recall that they also said there was no urine found in the basement storeroom or the Train Room, but there were urine stains in the area outside, by the stairs, not far from the doorway to the Train Room. So the conclusion of the panel was that JBR wet her clothing before being taken into the room with the broken window. She may not have died in that storeroom.

The fragment of pineapple in the small intestine indicates she ingested it much later than at the dinner party they had attended that evening.

I still go back and forth with the solution here. Many things support the notion that the parents would cover up for their son, especially if they cared excessively about appearances, and keeping scandal from the media.

Yet, there was the boot print, the garrote (apparently applied before her death), the various suspicious characters like Helgoth and Olivera... It is just hard to reconcile everything.

Good discussion, everybody!

[Billiou]

Hi Billou
The open window in the basement ?

If you watched the TV program you'd see that the window could only be open partially and that according to the crime scene photos there were cobwebs in the window. They tested the theory that someone could get through the window without disturbing the cobwebs and found that it would have been impossible.

[Billiou]

It makes no sense to me to have Patsy write a ransom note, that is John's job. John is the one who will sit down and consider very carefully what needs to be written to keep it brief and concise without giving too much away.

Pointing the finger at Patsy as the author, and bearing in mind she is a remote contender, not a strong contender, does not take into account their individual personalities - Patsy simply is not a "Ransom letter" writer, she doesn't have it in her, especially when John is there who is well capable to the task.

My view then is, if John did not write it - and I understand he was definitely ruled out, then neither of them wrote it.

So why couldn't John dictate the content, and Patsy writes it?

[Abby Normal]

So why couldn't John dictate the content, and Patsy writes it?

That's possible.

One thing I think hasn't been discussed before is the amount.
Whoever wrote that 118k amount knew about johns bonus.

Questions:
Did John leave any kind of paperwork in the house that states that bonus amount?That an intruder could have found?

Aboviously patsy knew and perhaps a couple of people from work. Where the work folks checked out?

Who else would have known? Did he tell any of his close friends?


If I was a cop, that is the angle I would pursue. Find out everyone who knew about johns bonus amount and grill the crap out of them, including if they told anyone else.

The killer knew his bonus amount.

[Harry D]

Police said that the house was maze-like. I can't see a random intruder wandering blindly around the place, sitting down and drafting ransom notes while the Ramseys were inside. If it was an intruder, then they either broke in before the Ramseys returned home, or they were already familiar with the Ramsey residence.

Was JonBenet the target or was she a means to an end? What better way to get back at the Ramseys than to kill their pride and joy. Just like everything else about this case, however, it only leads to more questions than answers. If the murderer was maliciously targeting the Ramseys, why was JonBenet's body cleaned and redressed? It would've had more shock value if her body had been left exposed. In that respect, it would tend to suggest a sadistic sexual predator. And what of the rambling ransom note? Was the intruder just creating a red herring or did he originally plan to take JonBenet before things escalated? That's the problem we have with trying to get into the mind of an unknown killer to understand their motives. Of course, people in the cover-up camp use the redressing as evidence that the Ramseys wanted to preserve JonBenet's dignity... after mercilessly strangling her and leaving her to rot in the basement.

I don't think any of the three Ramseys killed her. Admittedly, when I first approached this case I was drawn to the Burke theory but when you get down to it we have a nine year-old boy clobbering his sister and using an expertly constructed garrote to finish her off, as otherwise it implicates the parents. John & Patsy might be creepy pageant parents, but were they cold-blooded enough to viciously strangle their little girl to death to stage a murder scene? And why invent a kidnapping without disposing of the body?