JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

[louisa]

Another couple of points....

If your child was missing would you not search your house from top to bottom? It would at least give you something to do while you wait for the police to show up. Patsy just sat on her backside.

Jon had already made a cursory search.


Eventually Patsy asked her husband to search the house again and according to the friend who went with him, Jon went straight down the basement hall and along to the tiny place where the body was hidden.

And this, to me, is the strangest part of all.....John came upstairs carrying the body of JonBenet, but not close to his body as you would think a grieving parent would do with a beloved child, but holding her stiff body with both of his arms outstretched, to keep her as far away from himself as he could. That's odd behaviour isn't it?

Then Patsy threw herself down on top of JonBenet's body, in fits of hysteria, (asking God to raise her child from the dead as he had raised Lazarus) where it had been laid in front of the fire. Now I'm not saying this is strange behaviour, but in doing this Patsy ensured that any fibre evidence from herself that may later be found on the body would be explainable.

[Abby Normal]

Here is a website with some crime scene photo's.

http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f237/jonben-t-ramsey-autopsy-crime-scene-photos-8219/

I think the body had a blanket over it in the basement, John pulled it off her and picked her up, carrying her upstairs.
There is one pic. showing this white blanket on the basement floor, then there is a second photo with her face superimposed on the photograph and an arrow pointing to where she was found.
There is a square spot on the floor which is the same in both photo's, so it is the same place.

But I thought John carried her upstairs wrapped in the blanket? maybe not or maybe there was an extra blanket or the police brought it back down to photo the re enactment? if anybody knows for sure please respond.

[Abby Normal]

Another couple of points....

If your child was missing would you not search your house from top to bottom? It would at least give you something to do while you wait for the police to show up. Patsy just sat on her backside.

Jon had already made a cursory search.


Eventually Patsy asked her husband to search the house again and according to the friend who went with him, Jon went straight down the basement hall and along to the tiny place where the body was hidden.

And this, to me, is the strangest part of all.....John came upstairs carrying the body of JonBenet, but not close to his body as you would think a grieving parent would do with a beloved child, but holding her stiff body with both of his arms outstretched, to keep her as far away from himself as he could. That's odd behaviour isn't it?

Then Patsy threw herself down on top of JonBenet's body, in fits of hysteria, (asking God to raise her child from the dead as he had raised Lazarus) where it had been laid in front of the fire. Now I'm not saying this is strange behaviour, but in doing this Patsy ensured that any fibre evidence from herself that may later be found on the body would be explainable.

Hi Louisa

If your child was missing would you not search your house from top to bottom? It would at least give you something to do while you wait for the police to show up. Patsy just sat on her backside.

This one of the most suspicious things and I have also been pointing this out from the beginning. Any normal parent would have turned that house upside down! and its not like she was hidden in some obscure location like a closet or something-she was lying in the middle of a room!

Eventually Patsy asked her husband to search the house again and according to the friend who went with him, Jon went straight down the basement hall and along to the tiny place where the body was hidden.

actually I believe it was one of the police who asked but yes its odd that he made a beeline for that room now-but didn't look before???

also-re that flashlight. It was on the kithen table and the ramseys didn't mention it to the police that it wasn't theirs! it only came out much later!!
wouldn't that be the one of the first things you would mention? especially if it looks like the murder weapon?

[Abby Normal]

I don't need to tell you that the evidence of an expert witness is always favourable to their client, whether they are being paid by the Prosecution or the Defence.

A good expert witness will always be able to come up with something, an alternative (and sometimes implausible) theory the jury might believe. All the Defence needs is to convince one juror that their client is innocent. Just one seed of doubt is sometimes sufficient.



As for the bed sheets.....Yes they were soiled and had been put in the washing machine on the landing outside JonBenet's bedroom.

JonBenet had gone to bed wearing one outfit but when her body was found she was wearing another pyjama set.




Burke was a strange little boy. As I recall he laughed when he was informed that his sister was dead. He had inappropriate behaviour generally.

His sister was hospitalised a year (?) prior to this because he (accidentally) hit her head with a golf club.


The covering of the face is, as we armchair investigators will know, is a typical gesture of somebody who knew (and had regard for) their victim. The blanket found on JonBenet had been tucked in around her, almost as though the murderer wanted to keep her warm. Out of habit, maybe?

JonBenet had gone to bed wearing one outfit but when her body was found she was wearing another pyjama set.

if that is true, then this is a HUGE red flag against someone in the house!


re Burke-if he came down to play with a toy. I could see a scenario where Jon Benet hears him and comes downstairs and there is some altercation and he hits her. It could explain the pinapple being out, and a lot of other things.he had hit her with a golf club in the head before,

[Abby Normal]

The most experienced investigator came up with that interpretation which should indicate to most people that it would be crazy to dismiss the idea.




Make it appear to whom?
That reasoning isn't making any sense.
The application of a garrotte cannot disguise the head wound from an autopsy.
An intruder could just have easily caused the head wound, so why apply a garrotte, and why create such a specialized version of a garrotte?




Her bed was not wet, and her sheets were not stained.




Fine, but why make and apply a garrotte, and especially that type?




Until he is identified, no-one can say whether he knew when they would be back. There were plenty of rooms for him to hide in.




You seem to have decided the blow to her head came first, science has not even been able to establish that, in fact others have argued the blow had to come last because the extent of the damage to the skull would have killed her outright.




Being a snob, and a show-off, and suppressing her emotions does not make her a killer. Some people like to be in control, suppressing emotions is one way of remaining in control when your world is falling apart.

re the garrot: John was previously military, so he might have had the experience to make one. wasn't also one of the cords a Parachute cord?

[Pcdunn]

Found this site while trying to determine if the head wound was first or second (apparently opinions vary). This seems to be a JBR specific Websleuths type of site. Not recently updated, but it does have an overview of the case, all people related to it, the crime scene, evidence for and against various theories, and a timeline.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682477/FrontPage

[louisa]

I honestly believe that the head bashing was the first injury and I really don't believe that anyone in that house intended to kill JonBenet. It had to have been an accident. Either Patsy shoved her and the little girl fell against the hard corner of the basin or Burke did something. Unless he 'mans up' and tells the truth we will probably never know.

Patsy and John (in their panic) had thought JonBenet was dead and their egos could not cope with what 'people' would think. How on earth were they going to explain that JonBenet had died of a head wound?

They had to cover it up by inventing an intruder; somebody who sneaked into their home on Christmas night while they were sleeping and did evil things to their daughter while they slept upstairs.

Then he killed her with a blow to the head, amateurishly interfered with her sexually and garotted her. It mattered not to the Ramseys what order the police placed these things in.

Then sitting down to write the rambling three page 'ransom note' which included lines like "Grow a brain John" (a line from Dirty Harry) and another silly similar phrase (can't remember it right now, sorry) from another Hollywood movie 'Ransom' which starred Mel Gibson, if my memory serves me right. The writer evidently thought this was how a ransom note should sound.


Nothing in the 'intruder' theory makes sense. The whole scenario, however, does start to make sense when the theory is removed, leaving the people inside the house.

The police and the detectives knew the Ramseys were involved. They are used to dealing with crime scenes and they know when a scene has been staged.

The Ramseys lawyered up immediately. I believe they called their friends before they even called the police, I could be wrong on this point though.

Tellingly, John retained two separate lawyers for this case - one for himself and one for Patsy, which makes us think that he anticipated a parting of the ways, a future conflict of interests. He probably knew that Patsy would crack under very little pressure and when that happened he wanted to be able to distance himself from her accusations that he was involved.

As it happened the couple became so protected by lawyers that they never had to speak to the police or the detectives about that night. Crazy or what? The only time they consented to be interviewed by detectives was with the stipulation that all the questions would have to be submitted to their lawyers beforehand, and approved by themselves!

[Harry D]

I'm having a hard time believing that JonBenet was accidentally knocked unconscious, only for the Ramseys to think 'what the hey' before they smashed her skull & garroted her to cover it up. Whoever the culprit, this was a sadistic act of violence.

[Pcdunn]

Re the Bedwetting Rage Theory:

"Dry Bed Sheets. Regarding the bed-wetting rage theory, "crime scene photos taken the following morning do not indicate that JonBenet's bed was wet or suggest that the sheets to the bed had been changed. (Defs.' Exs. 56-58 attach. To Defs.' Summ. J. Mot.)" (Carnes 2003:Note 4). "there was no evidence that JonBenet's bed was wet on the night of her murder. (Smit Dep. at 145.)" (Carnes 2003:100). "Urine stains, however, were reported to have been found on JonBenet's underwear and leggings that she was wearing when her body was discovered. (See Coroner's Report at 2.) Thus, at some point after going to bed, but before being murdered, JonBenet urinated in her clothing. The evidence does not indicate whether this occurred in her bedroom, the basement, or during the route between the two rooms." (Carnes 2003:Note 4)."
SOURCE: http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/...tingRageTheory

[Abby Normal]

Found this site while trying to determine if the head wound was first or second (apparently opinions vary). This seems to be a JBR specific Websleuths type of site. Not recently updated, but it does have an overview of the case, all people related to it, the crime scene, evidence for and against various theories, and a timeline.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/...2477/FrontPage

All the experts Ive heard say the head was hit first before the choking.
and the result was unconsciousness, possibly brain death, and massive internall bleeding and swelling. and that this means still alive when the blow to the head occurred. so she was alive, but barely after the head blow and then the strangulation finished her off after ward.

[louisa]

JonBenet received a single blow to the head which broke her skull causing massive bleeding into her brain. This, I believe, was caused accidentally either by Patsy or by Burke. The fractured skull was not seen until the autopsy.

I believe that in their confused state of extreme panic Patsy and John must have thought that if the death was put down as obvious strangulation then the damaged skull would not be noticed by the pathologist.


It was the blanket from JonBenet's bed that was found in the washing machine.

[Wickerman]

Louisa.

- Under JonBenet's fingernails were found skin samples which provided DNA.
She scratched her killer.

- In her underwear was found more DNA, suggested to possibly be from saliva.

- The waistband of her tights provided more DNA, likely skin cells from her killers fingers.

All the DNA samples matched. All the samples were determined to be male - all family members, police, detectives, medical & autopsy staff, everyone who could possibly have come in contact with her body were tested and excluded.

How does this help the "Patsy did it" argument?

[Wickerman]

Watched tonight's Dateline program on NBC. It was fairly unbiased, presenting the facts and chronology, and both viewpoints. It contained information on the Grand Jury indictment, uncovered by a journalist, to the effect that "true bills" were issued about both Ramseys, but the D.A. didn't sign them, because he felt there would not be enough evidence to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Just saw an update on this indictment issue.

The Grand Jury was formed at the behest of the D.A., but at the conclusion of the Grand Jury assembly the D.A. discovered that the jury only heard the Boulder Police version of events, no witnesses outside the police dept. were presented to the Grand Jury.
The D.A. subsequently refused to indict the Ramsey's due to the Jury only hearing the Boulder Police side of the story, and....the fact the Boulder Police did not present the DNA evidence at the Hearing.
(Source, Dr. Phil Show 9/16/16)


Now that sounds more like a valid reason to me.

[Wickerman]

I don't need to tell you that the evidence of an expert witness is always favourable to their client, whether they are being paid by the Prosecution or the Defence.

A good expert witness will always be able to come up with something, an alternative (and sometimes implausible) theory the jury might believe. All the Defence needs is to convince one juror that their client is innocent. Just one seed of doubt is sometimes sufficient.

The investigator was hired by the D.A., not the Ramsey's.
Lou Smitt's was investigating from a purely impartial position.

As for the bed sheets.....Yes they were soiled and had been put in the washing machine on the landing outside JonBenet's bedroom.

JonBenet had gone to bed wearing one outfit but when her body was found she was wearing another pyjama set.

As these points are contradictory, can you provide your sources?

[Abby Normal]

Louisa.

- Under JonBenet's fingernails were found skin samples which provided DNA.
She scratched her killer.

- In her underwear was found more DNA, suggested to possibly be from saliva.

- The waistband of her tights provided more DNA, likely skin cells from her killers fingers.

All the DNA samples matched. All the samples were determined to be male - all family members, police, detectives, medical & autopsy staff, everyone who could possibly have come in contact with her body were tested and excluded.

How does this help the "Patsy did it" argument?

Are you sure about the DNA under the fingernails?and are you sure it matched the other two samples?

I've heard the fingernail DNA mentioned before but never definitively like the other two samples. It has not been mentioned in any of the latest docus.