JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

[louisa]

Writing a ransom note for a kidnapping while the body is still in the house doesn't make any sense to me at all.

It makes perfect sense if Patsy either committed the murder or Burke did it.

Have you ever heard of a kidnapper who doesn't take a ransom note with them but instead takes the time to sit down at the kitchen counter and make a series of attempts at a ransom note before settling on one they like?

The note writer used words like "We are a foreign faction" - which has to be the most ludicrous phrase because no foreign faction would refer to themselves in this way because to themselves, they are not foreign. The wording was straight out of a Hollywood movie.

What kidnapper purposely kills their victim before they've had a chance to get the money? Then leaves the body in a staged scene - then goes and writes a three page note. No kidnapper writes a long winded note but apparently it is consistent with Patsy's style. The kidnapper even praises John's business acumen.

I don't know whether you have seen the notes and Patsy's sample handwriting but they are extremely similar. The independent experts have stated that they ruled everybody else out except Patsy as the author of the note.

Then the kidnapper neatly replaced the marker pen back in it's holder in the pen jar on the worktop. Little things, but they all add up.

Yes, I am convinced the blow to the head was an accident but the garotting definitely wasn't.

It's a pity Patsy and John couldn't find the guts to admit to the police what really happened that night instead of cowardly trying to pin it on everyone they knew, even people who had supported them at the beginning.

[Wickerman]

It makes perfect sense if Patsy either committed the murder or Burke did it.

With the body still in the basement, how does that work?

Have you ever heard of a kidnapper who doesn't take a ransom note with them but instead takes the time to sit down at the kitchen counter and make a series of attempts at a ransom note before settling on one they like?

It might have been the investigator Lou Smits who proposed that the killer had broken into the house while everyone was out, and passed the time by writing this ransom note.
If Patsy was involved in staging her murder, it makes no sense for her to create a false ransom note. It's not as if they didn't have sufficient time to hide the body - they had all the time they needed.

The note writer used words like "We are a foreign faction" - which has to be the most ludicrous phrase because no foreign faction would refer to themselves in this way because to themselves, they are not foreign. The wording was straight out of a Hollywood movie.

Agreed, but that shortsighted excuse does not point to Patsy in particular.

...... No kidnapper writes a long winded note but apparently it is consistent with Patsy's style. The kidnapper even praises John's business acumen.

Eight or ten letters had similarities to how Patsy formed those same letters, but it isn't similarities that make the case, it's the differences. We are all taught in school to form our letters the same way, though many people have idiosyncrasies which set them apart. The differences in that ransom note far out number the similarities.

The independent experts have stated that they ruled everybody else out except Patsy as the author of the note.

The last opinion I saw was that on a scale of 0 - 5, zero being a certainty and five being unrelated, Pasty scored 4.5.
She could'nt be absolutely ruled out, but was far from certain.

Then the kidnapper neatly replaced the marker pen back in it's holder in the pen jar on the worktop. Little things, but they all add up.

Well, as Smits postulated, if he was in the house for an hour or more before they came home he would have the time to leave everything as he found it, he was not pushed for time.

Yes, I am convinced the blow to the head was an accident but the garotting definitely wasn't.

The garrotte is a significant clue, this was specifically designed to torture her, most people using a garrotte will just grab something close, like a phone cord, and wrap it around her neck - done!
This garrotte was created at the scene, using a paintbrush handle, and the girls hair was twisted into the knot.
The style of the garrotte had a slip-noose that could be tightened and loosened as the attacker chose. This is not a random creation by a family trying to fabricate a killing, this is consistent with someone who tortured the girl into partial suffocation, then let loose so she could gasp for air, then apply it again, repeatedly.
The marks around her neck indicate repeated application.

No parents are going to go to such trouble to create such a garrotte, it is far too unique in style & purpose.
This is the product of a sadistic sexual pervert, a very sick mind.

[louisa]

With the body still in the basement, how does that work?

Patsy wrote the note, JonBenet had either been put in the basement by then or the note could have been written immediately after the skull was fractured. There would have been a lot of panic going on in that household at that time and Patsy and John wouldn't have been thinking straight.

It might have been the investigator Lou Smits who proposed that the killer had broken into the house while everyone was out, and passed the time by writing this ransom note.

If Patsy was involved in staging her murder, it makes no sense for her to create a false ransom note. It's not as if they didn't have sufficient time to hide the body - they had all the time they needed.

This has to be the craziest theory of all - that some sadist murderer/kidnapper was already lurking in the house on Christmas night, just waiting, hoping for the family to go to bed so he could put his evil plan into action.

There would have been a lot of panic going on in that household at that time and Patsy and John wouldn't have been thinking straight. They could see JonBenet was mortally injured, maybe they even believed her to be dead. (Which is why the garotting took place to make it look like the only injury that would have caused JonBenet's death) the head wound was only visible at the autopsy).

Instead of calling 911 they made a decision that, in the light of day, was pure stupidity and the height of callousness.

Patsy was menopausal and had just recovered from cancer, she was on drugs and her hair had fallen out. She was in a neurotic state already and JonBenet had been winding her up all day, then to cap it all she wet the bed. It may have been the last straw for Patsy. Some women snap and lose it and this is what I think could have happened.

Then came the cover up. Try and make it look as though there had been an intruder.

She could'nt be absolutely ruled out, but was far from certain.

Correct. However, every other person (and there were hundreds) who gave writing samples WERE ruled out.

Well, as Smits postulated, if he was in the house for an hour or more before they came home he would have the time to leave everything as he found it, he was not pushed for time.

Oh so he was some cool dude just hanging out waiting for them?

He wouldn't have known what time they would be back.

The garrotte is a significant clue, this was specifically designed to torture her, most people using a garrotte will just grab something close, like a phone cord, and wrap it around her neck - done!
This garrotte was created at the scene, using a paintbrush handle, and the girls hair was twisted into the knot.
The style of the garrotte had a slip-noose that could be tightened and loosened as the attacker chose. This is not a random creation by a family trying to fabricate a killing, this is consistent with someone who tortured the girl into partial suffocation, then let loose so she could gasp for air, then apply it again, repeatedly.
The marks around her neck indicate repeated application.

JonBenet was already close to death and would not have felt a thing when the garrott was applied. She had had her skull fatally damaged and there had been a huge amount of bleeding into her brain.

No parents are going to go to such trouble to create such a garrotte, it is far too unique in style & purpose.

This is the product of a sadistic sexual pervert, a very sick mind.

You and I wouldn't but these two were something else.

It was not the work of a sadistic sexual pervert, as the Ramseys wished everyone to believe, but they engineered the entire thing themselves.

Patsy was a snob of the worst kind. Everything in her house was to impress others - the downstairs rooms were immaculate but the upstairs was an unbelievable mess. I think her mind was probably in a similar state.

If you look at the interviews on YouTube you won't see Patsy shed a single tear for her lost daughter. In fact she seemed to enjoy being in the limelight (again). It was just those pesky detectives that were making her life hell.

[Abby Normal]

Patsy wrote the note, JonBenet had either been put in the basement by then or the note could have been written immediately after the skull was fractured. There would have been a lot of panic going on in that household at that time and Patsy and John wouldn't have been thinking straight.




This has to be the craziest theory of all - that some sadist murderer/kidnapper was already lurking in the house on Christmas night, just waiting, hoping for the family to go to bed so he could put his evil plan into action.

There would have been a lot of panic going on in that household at that time and Patsy and John wouldn't have been thinking straight. They could see JonBenet was mortally injured, maybe they even believed her to be dead. (Which is why the garotting took place to make it look like the only injury that would have caused JonBenet's death) the head wound was only visible at the autopsy).

Instead of calling 911 they made a decision that, in the light of day, was pure stupidity and the height of callousness.

Patsy was menopausal and had just recovered from cancer, she was on drugs and her hair had fallen out. She was in a neurotic state already and JonBenet had been winding her up all day, then to cap it all she wet the bed. It may have been the last straw for Patsy. Some women snap and lose it and this is what I think could have happened.

Then came the cover up. Try and make it look as though there had been an intruder.



Correct. However, every other person (and there were hundreds) who gave writing samples WERE ruled out.



Oh so he was some cool dude just hanging out waiting for them?

He wouldn't have known what time they would be back.




JonBenet was already close to death and would not have felt a thing when the garrott was applied. She had had her skull fatally damaged and there had been a huge amount of bleeding into her brain.



You and I wouldn't but these two were something else.

It was not the work of a sadistic sexual pervert, as the Ramseys wished everyone to believe, but they engineered the entire thing themselves.

Patsy was a snob of the worst kind. Everything in her house was to impress others - the downstairs rooms were immaculate but the upstairs was an unbelievable mess. I think her mind was probably in a similar state.

If you look at the interviews on YouTube you won't see Patsy shed a single tear for her lost daughter. In fact she seemed to enjoy being in the limelight (again). It was just those pesky detectives that were making her life hell.

Totally agree with your last paragraph. They were attention whores of the worst type. I also came to feel they revelled in the attention, and instead of focusing on the tragedy of they're daughter and helping the police find the killer, it was all about them. (ironically this applies whether they killed her or not!).

Poor little attention whores:
On the day she's "missing" they invite all their friends over for a big PITTY party.
On the day she's missing, he lawyers up, eventually even hiring a PUBLICIST.
Recently when his company reached a milestone, he made it very public, interviews, newspaper articles big parties etc.
Patsy was a former pagent winner, and a stage mom to Jon benet, pimping her out for the world to see, interviews, parades.
Patsy let her house be featured in some historic mansions of Boulder show, and hundreds of people went through their house...
.....in which she laid out her pagent dress and winning crown on her bed for all to see. LOL. What a loser.
Instead of helping police, they did numerous major TV interviews.
They wrote books about it.
To this day Jon Ramsey still gives interviews, seemingly loving every second of it.
There interviews and demeaner are so unlike any other interview I've ever seen with people who had tragically lost a loved one, and neither ever sheds a single tear!!!!

They make me sick. And that goes for whether they killed her or not.

[AmericanSherlock]

My impression is that the Ramseys were almost certainly guilty and the mystery surrounding this case is quite similar to the William Herbert Wallace case which is also discussed on this forum.

Both cases smack of an inside job, but I believe the information we have is incomplete and there is the possibility of a conspiracy or some missing puzzle piece that is needed to make the case make sense. In both murders, it seems clear that the suspects had to be guilty on some level, yet there are many red herrings that serve to confuse and muddle the picture. And in both cases, the investigation was amateurish to say the least.

I would be very surprised if the Ramseys were not at least complicit in the cover-up or had some role in the (likely) accidental killing of their daughter.

[GUT]

Patsy wrote the note, JonBenet had either been put in the basement by then or the note could have been written immediately after the skull was fractured. There would have been a lot of panic going on in that household at that time and Patsy and John wouldn't have been thinking straight.




This has to be the craziest theory of all - that some sadist murderer/kidnapper was already lurking in the house on Christmas night, just waiting, hoping for the family to go to bed so he could put his evil plan into action.

There would have been a lot of panic going on in that household at that time and Patsy and John wouldn't have been thinking straight. They could see JonBenet was mortally injured, maybe they even believed her to be dead. (Which is why the garotting took place to make it look like the only injury that would have caused JonBenet's death) the head wound was only visible at the autopsy).

Instead of calling 911 they made a decision that, in the light of day, was pure stupidity and the height of callousness.

Patsy was menopausal and had just recovered from cancer, she was on drugs and her hair had fallen out. She was in a neurotic state already and JonBenet had been winding her up all day, then to cap it all she wet the bed. It may have been the last straw for Patsy. Some women snap and lose it and this is what I think could have happened.

Then came the cover up. Try and make it look as though there had been an intruder.



Correct. However, every other person (and there were hundreds) who gave writing samples WERE ruled out.



Oh so he was some cool dude just hanging out waiting for them?

He wouldn't have known what time they would be back.




JonBenet was already close to death and would not have felt a thing when the garrott was applied. She had had her skull fatally damaged and there had been a huge amount of bleeding into her brain.



You and I wouldn't but these two were something else.

It was not the work of a sadistic sexual pervert, as the Ramseys wished everyone to believe, but they engineered the entire thing themselves.

Patsy was a snob of the worst kind. Everything in her house was to impress others - the downstairs rooms were immaculate but the upstairs was an unbelievable mess. I think her mind was probably in a similar state.

If you look at the interviews on YouTube you won't see Patsy shed a single tear for her lost daughter. In fact she seemed to enjoy being in the limelight (again). It was just those pesky detectives that were making her life hell.

That last paragraph reminds me of the Chamerlain case here in Aus when Lindy was locked up, in the main for not displaying "enough grief" and the High Court (oh and science) eventually said not guilty and set her free.

[Wickerman]

That last paragraph reminds me of the Chamerlain case here in Aus when Lindy was locked up, in the main for not displaying "enough grief" and the High Court (oh and science) eventually said not guilty and set her free.

Judging someone on their display of emotion, or lack of the same is too subjective to be reliable. People do show & hide emotion in different ways, as I'm sure most of us have witnessed at some point or other.

[Abby Normal]

So I'm watching the CBS one and theyre showing the actual crime scene photos ans videos and they show the actual photo of what I guess is Jon Benets body wrapped in the blanket in that basement room. But hadn't Jon found her and carried her upstairs and laid her on the ground upstairs? So how did they get that photo?

[Wickerman]

This has to be the craziest theory of all - that some sadist murderer/kidnapper was already lurking in the house on Christmas night, just waiting, hoping for the family to go to bed so he could put his evil plan into action.

The most experienced investigator came up with that interpretation which should indicate to most people that it would be crazy to dismiss the idea.

They could see JonBenet was mortally injured, maybe they even believed her to be dead. (Which is why the garotting took place to make it look like the only injury that would have caused JonBenet's death) the head wound was only visible at the autopsy).

Make it appear to whom?
That reasoning isn't making any sense.
The application of a garrotte cannot disguise the head wound from an autopsy.
An intruder could just have easily caused the head wound, so why apply a garrotte, and why create such a specialized version of a garrotte?

She was in a neurotic state already and JonBenet had been winding her up all day, then to cap it all she wet the bed.

Her bed was not wet, and her sheets were not stained.

Try and make it look as though there had been an intruder.

Fine, but why make and apply a garrotte, and especially that type?

Oh so he was some cool dude just hanging out waiting for them?

He wouldn't have known what time they would be back.

Until he is identified, no-one can say whether he knew when they would be back. There were plenty of rooms for him to hide in.

JonBenet was already close to death and would not have felt a thing when the garrott was applied. She had had her skull fatally damaged and there had been a huge amount of bleeding into her brain.

You seem to have decided the blow to her head came first, science has not even been able to establish that, in fact others have argued the blow had to come last because the extent of the damage to the skull would have killed her outright.

Patsy was a snob of the worst kind. Everything in her house was to impress others - the downstairs rooms were immaculate but the upstairs was an unbelievable mess. I think her mind was probably in a similar state.

If you look at the interviews on YouTube you won't see Patsy shed a single tear for her lost daughter. In fact she seemed to enjoy being in the limelight (again). It was just those pesky detectives that were making her life hell.

Being a snob, and a show-off, and suppressing her emotions does not make her a killer. Some people like to be in control, suppressing emotions is one way of remaining in control when your world is falling apart.

[Pcdunn]

So I'm watching the CBS one and theyre showing the actual crime scene photos ans videos and they show the actual photo of what I guess is Jon Benets body wrapped in the blanket in that basement room. But hadn't Jon found her and carried her upstairs and laid her on the ground upstairs? So how did they get that photo?

Good question. I haven't seen it yet, but their website stated they had a exact replica of the Ramsey house, so I wonder if the photo wasn't of a dummy wrapped in the blanket, used for an investigative reenactment?

[Wickerman]

So I'm watching the CBS one and theyre showing the actual crime scene photos ans videos and they show the actual photo of what I guess is Jon Benets body wrapped in the blanket in that basement room. But hadn't Jon found her and carried her upstairs and laid her on the ground upstairs? So how did they get that photo?

Here is a website with some crime scene photo's.

http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f237/jonben-t-ramsey-autopsy-crime-scene-photos-8219/

I think the body had a blanket over it in the basement, John pulled it off her and picked her up, carrying her upstairs.
There is one pic. showing this white blanket on the basement floor, then there is a second photo with her face superimposed on the photograph and an arrow pointing to where she was found.
There is a square spot on the floor which is the same in both photo's, so it is the same place.

[YomRippur]

I just watched part 1 of the CBS special and it sounded like it was pushing Burke as the killer.

[Ginger]

Make it appear to whom?
That reasoning isn't making any sense.
The application of a garrotte cannot disguise the head wound from an autopsy.
An intruder could just have easily caused the head wound, so why apply a garrotte, and why create such a specialized version of a garrotte?

I'll agree that the garotte can't hide the head wound, but I've heard the point raised in other venues as well. There are plainly good, intelligent people to whom that idea initially occurs, whether or not it survives critical examination.

If the murderer were one of those people, then the garotte can be reasonably postulated as an attempt to distract from the head wound, whether successful or not.

[Pcdunn]

I just watched part 1 of the CBS special and it sounded like it was pushing Burke as the killer.

The CBS Special concludes tomorrow night. Supposedly the retired FBI investigator, Fitzgerald, will name who he thinks killed JBR, and who he thinks assisted the killer.

Dr. Phil concludes his interview with Burke tomorrow, too. A clip shown o the news depicted Burke admitting he recalled going downstairs after everyone else was in bed, to play with a toy he had received as a gift.
Phil asked if he had used a flashlight so no one would wake up, and Burke said he didn't remember. They also mentioned that when asked to draw a picture of his family as a child, following the death of his sister, Burke left JBR. (That seems logical to me, remembering how kids look at the world. JonBenet was dead, so she wasn't in the family any more.)

[louisa]

The most experienced investigator came up with that interpretation which should indicate to most people that it would be crazy to dismiss the idea.


Her bed was not wet, and her sheets were not stained.

I don't need to tell you that the evidence of an expert witness is always favourable to their client, whether they are being paid by the Prosecution or the Defence.

A good expert witness will always be able to come up with something, an alternative (and sometimes implausible) theory the jury might believe. All the Defence needs is to convince one juror that their client is innocent. Just one seed of doubt is sometimes sufficient.



As for the bed sheets.....Yes they were soiled and had been put in the washing machine on the landing outside JonBenet's bedroom.

JonBenet had gone to bed wearing one outfit but when her body was found she was wearing another pyjama set.




Burke was a strange little boy. As I recall he laughed when he was informed that his sister was dead. He had inappropriate behaviour generally.

His sister was hospitalised a year (?) prior to this because he (accidentally) hit her head with a golf club.


The covering of the face is, as we armchair investigators will know, is a typical gesture of somebody who knew (and had regard for) their victim. The blanket found on JonBenet had been tucked in around her, almost as though the murderer wanted to keep her warm. Out of habit, maybe?