JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

[Abby Normal]

Well here, tell me this. Part way through the program the claim was made that the sexual assault charge was incorrect, that internal swelling was actually vaginitis and not evidence of sexual assault. Yet later in the show it was pointed out that some DNA was found in her panties, indicative of an attempt towards that end.

So did you get the impression there is a contradiction here, or not?



Patsy, especially to my mind was overplaying her hand - quite the dramatist when it called for sympathy, but at other times clearly cold.

Yes, but there seemed to be questions whether the swelling/irritation was vaginitis, recent or history of sexual abuse. I don't think it was resolved either way IMHO. But yes DNA on the panties and leggings seems to indicate at least an attempt at a sexual assault. No semen so makes it more amibiguous.

After watching two recent docus on the subject I give the intruder idea a little more credence. So 53/47 family vs intruder.
Pretty close to 50/50 at this point, but well see how it changes with the other shows still to air.

[Wickerman]

The intruder theory has its problems too, sure the entry through the basement window was demonstrably possible, but the killer had to sneak through the house and locate her bedroom, then take her out of bed, and back downstairs to the basement - without her making a noise.
The murder is said to have been committed in that basement, but the sequence of events, and the ransom letter left on the stairs suggest he planned to kidnap her - so what happened?
And, what was the girl doing while the killer wrote the three-page ransom note?

Then there is the stun-gun burns, this is not a silent weapon, we've all heard the buzz and crackle when the gun is fired, so why would the killer think he could use such a noisy weapon in a quiet house and not wake someone up?

Why bring the stun-gun, did he intend to stun her into unconsciousness?
I looked around on the net and opinions differ as to whether a stun-gun can render a person unconscious. Mind you, these are opinions concerning an adult victim, not a child.

Then why kill her in the basement close to his escape window?

I can understand how the Boulder Police will interpret a confused murder scene as evidence of a contrived murder scene.


Over here we get a US tv show called Toddlers & Tiaras, little girls dressed up with make-up and lipstick to look like adults, and are often required to pose like hookers. A real pedi-fest for perverts.
I find it disgusting, its a form of child abuse when taken to this extreme, anyhow, with the victim being one of these toddlers, I wonder if the police looked at any parents of other toddlers who's daughter lost a competition to the Ramsey girl.
Some kind of revenge killing?

[Abby Normal]

The intruder theory has its problems too, sure the entry through the basement window was demonstrably possible, but the killer had to sneak through the house and locate her bedroom, then take her out of bed, and back downstairs to the basement - without her making a noise.
The murder is said to have been committed in that basement, but the sequence of events, and the ransom letter left on the stairs suggest he planned to kidnap her - so what happened?
And, what was the girl doing while the killer wrote the three-page ransom note?

Then there is the stun-gun burns, this is not a silent weapon, we've all heard the buzz and crackle when the gun is fired, so why would the killer think he could use such a noisy weapon in a quiet house and not wake someone up?

Why bring the stun-gun, did he intend to stun her into unconsciousness?
I looked around on the net and opinions differ as to whether a stun-gun can render a person unconscious. Mind you, these are opinions concerning an adult victim, not a child.

Then why kill her in the basement close to his escape window?

I can understand how the Boulder Police will interpret a confused murder scene as evidence of a contrived murder scene.


Over here we get a US tv show called Toddlers & Tiaras, little girls dressed up with make-up and lipstick to look like adults, and are often required to pose like hookers. A real pedi-fest for perverts.
I find it disgusting, its a form of child abuse when taken to this extreme, anyhow, with the victim being one of these toddlers, I wonder if the police looked at any parents of other toddlers who's daughter lost a competition to the Ramsey girl.
Some kind of revenge killing?

Hi Wickerman
If it was an intruder, than I think it was definitely someone obsessed with Jon Benett. Her mom was pimping her out all over the place. The pageants, a recent x mass parade. Patsy was actually hosting some kind of historic homes of boulder event, where hundreds of people took tours of there house. She even had opened up their rooms for the publics to see, spreading her own miss west Virginia dress and crown on her bed so everyone would know she won. Like I said what an attention whore. Not only that but Jon company reached some kind of milestone and he was making it very public-parties, interviews and news articles.

They really put their dughter and themselves out there (and up there- like see how great we are) for any sicko to see. And I think that one may have.

He may have been stalking them. Been to their house on the tour. But I think it may have to have been someone close, to know about the bonus amount. I think the most likely scenario here is he broke in while they were gone with the intention of just abducting her for sexual reasons, and while he was waiting for their return cam up with the idea of either trying to get money from them or effing with them, with no intention of returning her alive. So writes the note while there gone and waits in the basement for them to come home and go to bed. Maybe during this time he makes the garrot also.

Later sneaks up to her bedroom, stun guns her, puts the duct tape around the mouth. Leaves the note. Takes her to basement. Can't get her into the suitcase or out the window so tortures and kills her in the out of the way back room.
And out the window. In this sequence the abduction attempt and murder really don't take that long. This scenario would explain a lot but of course leaves a ton of problems.

How did he know the bonus amount.
How did he do all this without them waking up.
It's a rather implausible scenario even for a botched abduction.
If this was the case then the Ramsey's were innocent. So why did they not cooperate fully with the police?
While it was demonstrated it was possible to easily open the grate and get through the window, how would he even know he could enter that way?
If abduction was the plan all the way? What was he planning on taking her out in? Or was he going to force her to walk out? bringing her out in the suitcase must have only occurred to him while was in the house, as it was the ramseys.
There's just so much that if it's an intruder is hard to fit.

And yes the kid pageants are disgusting.
Revenge killing? That's interesting. The parents who enter their children in these pagents are sickos to begin with so wouldn't surprise me.

[sdreid]

I don't think it was an intruder but if it was you have to feel sorry for the Ramseys; especially Burke who, unless the real murderer is found, will have to live maybe 80 years of his life with some people thinking he might have killed his sister.

[AmericanSherlock]

I don't think it was an intruder but if it was you have to feel sorry for the Ramseys; especially Burke who, unless the real murderer is found, will have to live maybe 80 years of his life with some people thinking he might have killed his sister.

I think the most likely scenario is that 1 or both of the parents were guilty or complicit in some way, and that Burke is innocent and will, like you said, have to live the rest of his life under awful and unwarranted suspicion.

[Abby Normal]

I don't think it was an intruder but if it was you have to feel sorry for the Ramseys; especially Burke who, unless the real murderer is found, will have to live maybe 80 years of his life with some people thinking he might have killed his sister.

Even if it was an intruder it could very well be partially the parents fault for pimping her out in the parents, parades tec. And not cooperating for the police. I would feel sorry for Burke though.

[Harry D]

That's the thing with the JonBenet murder, much like the William Herbert Wallace case, the evidence can swing it either way with no satisfying answer. The DNA and the footprint supports the intruder theory, but the dodgy ransom note and pineapple sends it back in the other direction.

That's why I mentioned Michael Helgoth a few pages back. From what I've read, he shot himself shortly after the DA went on television announcing that they were closing in on JonBenet's killer. Among the possessions found at his apartment were a shirt with "S.B.T.C." on it, and a pair of pants with "Victory!", which were the signatures on the ransom note. There were a pair of Hi-Tec work boots which could've left a similar footprint to the one found in the Ramsey's wine cellar, and a taser gun. Helgoth's friend, John Kenady, claims that Helgoth was bragging about a business deal he was going to pull off that would've landed him and his secret partner $50-60k each (a similar sum to the one stipulated in the ransom note). It has been put forward that Helgoth's suicide was suspicious due to the positioning of the body, and that he may have been silenced by his accomplice.

Helgoth wasn't a match for the DNA, assuming it was left by the killer, that is, but it's possible he was involved without taking part in the actual abduction/murder. He might have been the getaway driver while his partner went inside to take JonBenet. Perhaps something went awry, JonBenet woke up, and the intruder lost his rag and killed her? Even so, did he really roam the house looking for a notepad to write a 3 page ransom letter, instead of preparing one beforehand? That's the problem I have with the intruder theory, there's no scenario that would appear to make sense without involving the Ramseys on some level (i.e. the ransom note).

Going back to what Errata said earlier in the thread, I tend to agree now that the type of murder would seem to vindicate the Ramseys. It's the kind of sadosexual murder we see committed by child predators, only it happened in the victim's own basement. Can I see a little boy lashing out violently against a sibling? Sure. Can I see a boy viciously garroting his little sister? Maybe... there have been some nasty child killers, but for a prepubescent boy who escaped punishment, Burke Ramsey would appear to be well-adjusted enough not to reoffend or show any significant mental problems. Either the kid's Damien from the Omen, or he's totally innocent. As for the argument that the Ramseys covered-up JonBenet's death to protect Burke, they were happy to let Burke testify before the grand jury and apparently they didn't keep that tight a leash on him afterwards.

[Abby Normal]

That's the thing with the JonBenet murder, much like the William Herbert Wallace case, the evidence can swing it either way with no satisfying answer. The DNA and the footprint supports the intruder theory, but the dodgy ransom note and pineapple sends it back in the other direction.

That's why I mentioned Michael Helgoth a few pages back. From what I've read, he shot himself shortly after the DA went on television announcing that they were closing in on JonBenet's killer. Among the possessions found at his apartment were a shirt with "S.B.T.C." on it, and a pair of pants with "Victory!", which were the signatures on the ransom note. There were a pair of Hi-Tec work boots which could've left a similar footprint to the one found in the Ramsey's wine cellar, and a taser gun. Helgoth's friend, John Kenady, claims that Helgoth was bragging about a business deal he was going to pull off that would've landed him and his secret partner $50-60k each (a similar sum to the one stipulated in the ransom note). It has been put forward that Helgoth's suicide was suspicious due to the positioning of the body, and that he may have been silenced by his accomplice.

Helgoth wasn't a match for the DNA, assuming it was left by the killer, that is, but it's possible he was involved without taking part in the actual abduction/murder. He might have been the getaway driver while his partner went inside to take JonBenet. Perhaps something went awry, JonBenet woke up, and the intruder lost his rag and killed her? Even so, did he really roam the house looking for a notepad to write a 3 page ransom letter, instead of preparing one beforehand? That's the problem I have with the intruder theory, there's no scenario that would appear to make sense without involving the Ramseys on some level (i.e. the ransom note).

Going back to what Errata said earlier in the thread, I tend to agree now that the type of murder would seem to vindicate the Ramseys. It's the kind of sadosexual murder we see committed by child predators, only it happened in the victim's own basement. Can I see a little boy lashing out violently against a sibling? Sure. Can I see a boy viciously garroting his little sister? Maybe... there have been some nasty child killers, but for a prepubescent boy who escaped punishment, Burke Ramsey would appear to be well-adjusted enough not to reoffend or show any significant mental problems. Either the kid's Damien from the Omen, or he's totally innocent. As for the argument that the Ramseys covered-up JonBenet's death to protect Burke, they were happy to let Burke testify before the grand jury and apparently they didn't keep that tight a leash on him afterwards.

That's interesting about the Helgoth character. What a name! If it's true about his clothes with that ransome stuff written on it then IMHO that would pretty suspicious.And the taser and other stuff? I mean what a coincidence!?!

As I mentioned, if the intruder entered there house while they were out, he may have looked around a bit and decided to write the ransome note then, while waiting for there return.

And yes the type of murder would tend to lean away from the Ramsey's, but on the other hand, how many children have been found murdered by an intruder in the home while the parents were there? That got to be extremely rare if not unheard of. Also her being found wrapped in her favorite blanket and another personal item found nearby indicates the killer cared and or had a deep emotional attachment to the victim. Most of the time when a victim is found this way it turns out a family member was guilty

As for Burke I don't rule him out, but would find it extremely unlikely. He seemed to be genuinely innocent in the interviews, clueless, and none of the experts afterwards thought he was deceptive or had anything to do with it. Plus as you said, if he knew anything, his parents wouldn't let him talk. If it was the parents they must have known he slept through it, knew nothing, and was safe to let him talk.

[sdreid]

And not cooperating for the police.

Yes like I said on another site, if you don't want people to think you're guilty, don't do things that guilty people do. John Walsh took a lie detector test (and passed) no matter what some lawyer might have told him.

[Wickerman]

I don't know if anyone has seen this webpage, there are some points that contradict what we have just learned elsewhere, and some other interesting details.

http://dyingwords.net/who-really-killed-jonbenet-ramsey/#sthash.IGdNby4R.dpbs

[Harry D]

I don't know if anyone has seen this webpage, there are some points that contradict what we have just learned elsewhere, and some other interesting details.
http://dyingwords.net/who-really-kil....IGdNby4R.dpbs

I used to think Patsy wrote the ransom note, for most of the reasons given on that site, but now I have my doubts. It's said that the ransom fee was the same as John Ramsey's bonus the year before. Technically, it wouldn't matter how much they asked for, as they knew JonBenet was dead. Why such a specific number? Why not pluck a random figure out of thin air instead of something that could lead back to them? Unless they were trying to implicate someone connected to John Ramsey's workplace, I don't know.

A similar principle applies to the length of the ransom letter. If you know that ransom letters are generally to the point, why would you write a rambling 2½ page monologue? Patsy can kill her own daughter and stage a murder scene but she can't write a basic ransom note? Once again, I defer to Errata on this. This could've been written by someone with some kind of intellectual impairment. I've read that people with autism can go overboard on the details when writing.

[Abby Normal]

I don't know if anyone has seen this webpage, there are some points that contradict what we have just learned elsewhere, and some other interesting details.
http://dyingwords.net/who-really-kil....IGdNby4R.dpbs

Interesting article. He makes a strong case against pasty as the killer.

[Wickerman]

I looked up this Michael Helgoth, never heard of him before. Thankyou Harry D.

http://www.topix.com/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/TKHL1CODMPECACJHN

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3538060/JonBenet-Ramsey-s-REAL-murderer-26-year-old-son-junkyard-owner-killed-death-claims-investigator-hired-child-beauty-queen-s-parents.html

If what is being written about him is true, why didn't the police show a little more interest?

[caz]

Hi All,

It's the unusual length of that ransom note that must be suggestive of something, but what? Was it to buy time for whoever killed JonBenet, so the note's 'finder' would naturally be kept occupied in that part of the house while poring over it and absorbing all the information it contained before deciding what to do first? The emphasis on the girl having been taken from the house unharmed, and the repeated death threats if her parents called in the police or even breathed in the wrong direction, would have helped to prevent an immediate search of the entire property - for JonBenet or her supposed abductor(s) - and also explain why one was not made immediately.

If Patsy wrote it, she would have had to pretend she took the time to read it through carefully before reacting. If an intruder wrote it, they'd know the finder would waste their time reading it, believing JonBenet to be alive somewhere, not dead and still in the house. So the length and content could have been beneficial in either case.

If the length of the note was not a deliberate ploy by the killer to cause confusion, could it simply have been the product of a seriously confused mind, struggling to make the words look convincing in the wake of the killing? Either way, it doesn't really help to rule out either Patsy or an intruder.

Love,

Caz
X

[sdreid]

Did anyone see the interview of Burke on Dr. Phil in the last couple of days? I did not but I have heard others say that his behavior was rather odd.