New Zodiac Candidate

[sdreid]

If I was going to choose a Zodiac victim who I don't think really was a Zodiac victim, it would be Kathleen Johns.

[RivkahChaya]

The murder weapon in the Lake Berryessa attacks was a knife, not a gun.

IIRC, the cause of the death, and near-death was a knife, but the killer had a gun, and the was what he used to threaten the victims when he forced one to tie up the other. I didn't look this up, just now, but if memory serves, the Lake Berryessa attack was the one where he wore the hood, and in the famous witness description-based drawing, where he is wearing the hood, he's holding a gun. Again, IIRC, another time when he used a gun he was also carrying a knife. For all I know, he also carried a lead pipe, and a candlestick. No, seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if he carried multiple weapons on himself each time he attacked. If any killer ever had multiple guns and made a point of using more than one just for the hell of it-- you know, more guns = more badass-- it would be Zodiac.

[Harry D]

Regarding Lake Berryessa, Hartnell said he thought the gun was a .45 but I'm not sure how familiar he was with firearms. And even if he was a firearms expert, a 9 mm might look like a .45 to you when you are staring down the barrel.

The murder weapon in the Lake Berryessa attacks was a knife, not a gun.

[sdreid]

Then we have the variation in murder weapons:

Lake Herman - .22 semi-auto pistol

Blue Rock Springs Park - 9mm semi-auto pistol

Lake Berryessa - knife

Presidio Heights - 9mm semi-auto pistol

Regarding Lake Berryessa, Hartnell said he thought the gun was a .45 but I'm not sure how familiar he was with firearms. And even if he was a firearms expert, a 9 mm might look like a .45 to you when you are staring down the barrel.

[RivkahChaya]

I think there was a Zodiac. But I do think he exaggerated his kill-rate, and took credit for some things he didn't do.

[Harry D]

That's if there was a 'Zodiac'. I've my doubts that Paul Stine was murdered by the same man who was killing kids in lovers lanes. And if the Zodiac didn't kill Stine, then he didn't send the bloodied shirt and the letters.

[RivkahChaya]

Son of Sam was nuts, though, and taking orders from the neighbors dog. Zodiac took real pleasure in being the Zodiac. He seemed to waffle between wanting credit for what he'd done, and knowing that taking full credit would put an end to his reign of terror. He wrapped himself up as completely in the Zodiac identity as he could, so that he could know that any time someone expressed fear, that was his doing. He wanted the Zodiac to go down in history, like Jack the Ripper, or the New Orleans Axeman. I don't think Son of Sam saw himself as a force in history-- albeit, I think some people could be both terrorists and sexual sadists: BTK, for example.

I think for Zodiac there was a lot of pleasure in writing those ciphers and anticipating the fear the whole city would be gripped in when they were published. He never shot up a school bus, but the threat was more fearsome than the aftermath of any one of his actual crimes against adults.

But, unless he's caught, we'll never know for sure.

[Abby Normal]

I would call the Zodiac a terrorist, as opposed to a sexual serial killer. I think most serial killers are motivated either by power over a single victim, or power over society, and the ones who are motivated by power over a single person usually get off on it, and have a lot in common with rapists, whether the killer actually rapes the victim or not. The ones who want power over society have a lot in common with political assassins, they just haven't attached themselves to a cause-- or they've made their own aggrandizement the cause. I want to say that Lee Harvey Oswald has a lot in common with the Zodiac, but I don't want derail this thread into a debate about the Kennedy assassination, so let's just say that the theoretical Oswald presented by people like Gerald Posner has the same psychology as a serial killer like the Zodiac.

Hi RC
I would disagree with that label. Terrorists have a political and/or religious motive for their actions and belong to groups.

Zodiac was a thrill kill serial killer. Vey similar to Son of Sam.
And while I agree that there was little to no sexual aspect to there killings there could be a peripheral sexish (for lack of better word)aspect in that they targeted couples and may have possibly got some kind of arousal or satisfaction from killing people who seemed to have normal sexual relationships. Mad at the world so to speak and/or jealous of people who weren't losers like themselves.

[RivkahChaya]

I would call the Zodiac a terrorist, as opposed to a sexual serial killer. I think most serial killers are motivated either by power over a single victim, or power over society, and the ones who are motivated by power over a single person usually get off on it, and have a lot in common with rapists, whether the killer actually rapes the victim or not. The ones who want power over society have a lot in common with political assassins, they just haven't attached themselves to a cause-- or they've made their own aggrandizement the cause. I want to say that Lee Harvey Oswald has a lot in common with the Zodiac, but I don't want derail this thread into a debate about the Kennedy assassination, so let's just say that the theoretical Oswald presented by people like Gerald Posner has the same psychology as a serial killer like the Zodiac.

[Harry D]

Has any of the forensic evidence (fingerprints, DNA) been cross-matched in the Zodiac murders?

The composite sketches for the Lake Berryessa suspect and Paul Stine's killer don't look anything alike.

Then we have the variation in murder weapons:

Lake Herman - .22 semi-auto pistol

Blue Rock Springs Park - 9mm semi-auto pistol

Lake Berryessa - knife

Presidio Heights - 9mm semi-auto pistol

[Batman]

What evidence is there for the 'Zodiac Murders' being a serial killer? Unlike the Ripper, there's a different MO in each of the murders and a different murder-weapon.

DNA. They also have prints from Stine's cab.

[sdreid]

The letters pretty much tie most of the murders together because of knowledge that only the killer would know. Then you have the letters after Stine that contained actual evidence from the crime scene. With the different jurisdictions, I don't think even a hoaxing policeman could have pulled all that off. My best guess is that he only killed five in four attacks. A gun was used in all the assaults although it was only used for intimidation at Lake Berryessa.

[John G]

Well, of course, there are generally thought to be 7 confirmed victims. Additionally, I consider Bates, as well as Domingos and Edwards as possibles (there are obvious similarities between this double murder and Hartnell and Shepard) An obvious link is that the majority of victims were young couples-unusual victimology in itself-attacked in remote locations, usually close to water. All the victims were shot, and a knife was also sometimes used.

Moreover, I've long thought there was something impersonal about his crimes. He seems to me to have more in common with a detached spree killer, like a sniper, than a conventional serial killer. In fact, I would agree with Abby's earlier post, that he was probably a thrill killer as, I believe, are most snipers.

[Harry D]

What evidence is there for the 'Zodiac Murders' being a serial killer? Unlike the Ripper, there's a different MO in each of the murders and a different murder-weapon.

[Batman]

I wonder if they'll ever crack any of the other Zodiac ciphers? I hope I'm still around if that day comes.

Best thing I ever read about them is here -http://www.zodiackillerciphers.com/?p=573

I don't believe he had the ability to create complex ciphers and his later ciphers after the simple one that got cracked easily are meaningless. What makes it seem complex is that the FBI tried but failed to crack the first one but they should have because it was easily done by a husband and wife.