Bible John (General Discussion)

[Herlock Sholmes]

My apologies to all for opening yet another Bible John thread (no, I’m not making an attempt to catch up with the amount of Lechmere threads) I did it because the three that we have are all quite specific and I wasn’t sure where to place this post. So I thought I’d open a Bible John General Discussion thread)…


I intend to listen to the podcast again but from looking at my notes there is one point does intrigue me.

I wrote - ‘McEwan and Hughes (cold case officers) are convinced that the guy in the taxi, the with Helen and Jeannie was John Irvine McInnes but aren’t convinced that he was the killer though. Even though the Procurator Fiscal had told them that if he was still alive he’d have issued a warrant for McInnes.’

I still think ‘surely he must have been the killer?’ Although one person does throw doubt on this - the taxi driver, William MacDonald who claimed to have seen a woman in a black and white ocelot coat (like the one that Helen was wearing) running down South Street at around 1.00am. This location was around 200 yards from where Helen’s body was located. Audrey Gillan points out that he was never re-interview or mentioned again although I have to wonder why he would need to be interviewed again? Perhaps the police doubted him for some reason as it’s difficult to see this in terms of any kind of McInnes-related as the woman was alone when sighted. Strangely though, Joe Beattie said that he had no knowledge of this sighting although it’s in the statements.

The cold case detectives believe that Helen got away from her killer and made it to the railway embankment where he killed her. They deduced this because Helen was found on tarmac but there was vegetation between the ligature and her neck and there were grass stains on the soles of her feet. So questions..

If MacDonald did see Helen how did she come to be alone? The question was asked - if she was in trouble why didn’t she try to flag his taxi down? MacDonald didn't mention her appearing distressed but she was still running and facial expressions don’t always tell the full story?

If Helen was indeed killed at the embankment why did the killer bother moving her body to another location?

Is the suggestion of Helen escaping before being caught after a struggle strengthened by the fact that she had a bite mark on her wrist? Had the killer tried to put a hand over her mouth..perhaps from behind?

If Helen got to the embankment why did she go in the opposite direction to her own home which was only 8 doors away?

If Helen got away from her killer why wasn’t she heard - why didn’t she scream out?

What are the chances of MacDonald seeing a woman who wasn’t Helen but was in that location wearing the same type and colour of coat?


It’s a puzzle.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hi Herlock, I think it's a good idea to start a general thread on the Bible John murders.

I got an email from Jill Bavin-Mizzi re her source for the disheveled man on the bus paying his fare with money from a red purse, and she confirmed that it was from
"Dancing With the Devil" by Paul Harrison.
Unfortunately Harrison does not give a source for this piece of information.

You raise some interesting points above re Helen Puttock, although I think that Occam's Razor would lead me to believe that she was probably killed in a blitz attack at the embankment and then moved closer to the building where she would have less chance of being seen by people looking out of their windows.
But who really knows anything for certain in this case.

I am also intending to listen to the podcast again, taking notes this time.

[cobalt]

I can see why the sighting in South Street was dismissed: it's seems to be based on a coat and little else.

We know that Helen Puttock was in a taxi which dropped her off in Earl Street, I assume on the corner where her block of flat links with Balmoral Street? There was no reason for her to take any scenic route home around 200 yards away. If she was being pursued, then human instinct is to head for home and shout for help from relatives and neighbours. It seems that is what she attempted by running round to a backyard which adjoins a railway embankment. (Barn can correct me if my geography is faulty.)

There was no innocent reason for McInnes/BJ to leave the taxi since Helen was close to her flat entrance and would hardly be entertaining a gentleman with her husband and two children at home. I would guess that the altercation seen by the Earl Street taxi driver was Helen pointing out these basic facts to her dancing partner of the evening.

[Ms Diddles]

If MacDonald did see Helen how did she come to be alone? The question was asked - if she was in trouble why didn’t she try to flag his taxi down? MacDonald didn't mention her appearing distressed but she was still running and facial expressions don’t always tell the full story?

If Helen was indeed killed at the embankment why did the killer bother moving her body to another location?

I'm with Barn on this. I think it's probable that he caught up with her on the embankment and dragged her back down close to the back tenement wall so they were not visible to any residents who looked out their window.

Is the suggestion of Helen escaping before being caught after a struggle strengthened by the fact that she had a bite mark on her wrist? Had the killer tried to put a hand over her mouth..perhaps from behind?

Possible!

If Helen got to the embankment why did she go in the opposite direction to her own home which was only 8 doors away?

Perhaps things had gone awry enough for her to feel the need to get away from BJ, but she wasn't aware that she was in mortal danger and was still primarily concerned that her husband would see her with a guy she had picked up at the dancing.

If Helen got away from her killer why wasn’t she heard - why didn’t she scream out?

Same as above.

What are the chances of MacDonald seeing a woman who wasn’t Helen but was in that location wearing the same type and colour of coat?

The coat does sound quite distinctive doesn't it?

Could MacDonald just be an attention seeker trying to insinuate himself into the cases?


It’s a puzzle.

Sure is!

If you guys are giving the podcasts another listen, I'll likely do the same (FOMO again)!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock, I think it's a good idea to start a general thread on the Bible John murders.

I got an email from Jill Bavin-Mizzi re her source for the disheveled man on the bus paying his fare with money from a red purse, and she confirmed that it was from
"Dancing With the Devil" by Paul Harrison.
Unfortunately Harrison does not give a source for this piece of information.

You raise some interesting points above re Helen Puttock, although I think that Occam's Razor would lead me to believe that she was probably killed in a blitz attack at the embankment and then moved closer to the building where she would have less chance of being seen by people looking out of their windows.
But who really knows anything for certain in this case.

I am also intending to listen to the podcast again, taking notes this time.

Hello Barn,

Thanks for your effort in contacting the author which does illustrate a problem in this case and with a problem in general. A problem in general for me is when an author puts the sources/ notes at the back of a book where not everyone will check them out leaving them with an assumption that what’s been written is a fully backed up fact. The problem in this case of course is that the author tends to use newspaper and book quotes as if she’s reporting a fact. It would have been much better if she’d said something like “ ..in his book, Paul Harrison claimed that……..but he doesn’t list his source for this so we can’t confirm if it’s true or not.” I know it’s not as catchy or much of a ‘wow, really?” but it would be accurate.

Your’e suggestion makes sense but I still wish we had a photograph of the crime scene area as another explanation might have been that Helen got away and was hiding but the killer found her before she had a chance to scream out. Seeing the location would tell us if this was at least possible because it does seem strange that no one heard anything. Looking at the modern day photograph of the house from the street shows what might be an embankment but it’s certainly not a high one.



I’m probably wasting my time trying to add a photograph but here goes. From this position Helen Puttock’s house is behind you and over your left shoulder. Looking forward and over that fence you can see houses on the left. About 100 yards down is the site of Helen’s murder. You can just see the embankment on the right which isn’t very high.

As suspected, the pic is crap. Too small, even though it was ‘full size’ when I posted it. I give up on posting photos.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I can see why the sighting in South Street was dismissed: it's seems to be based on a coat and little else.

We know that Helen Puttock was in a taxi which dropped her off in Earl Street, I assume on the corner where her block of flat links with Balmoral Street? There was no reason for her to take any scenic route home around 200 yards away. If she was being pursued, then human instinct is to head for home and shout for help from relatives and neighbours. It seems that is what she attempted by running round to a backyard which adjoins a railway embankment. (Barn can correct me if my geography is faulty.)

There was no innocent reason for McInnes/BJ to leave the taxi since Helen was close to her flat entrance and would hardly be entertaining a gentleman with her husband and two children at home. I would guess that the altercation seen by the Earl Street taxi driver was Helen pointing out these basic facts to her dancing partner of the evening.

Helen was on her own when MacDonald saw her.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If you guys are giving the podcasts another listen, I'll likely do the same (FOMO again)!

I still had to Google FOMO

[Ms Diddles]

Hello Barn,

Thanks for your effort in contacting the author which does illustrate a problem in this case and with a problem in general. A problem in general for me is when an author puts the sources/ notes at the back of a book where not everyone will check them out leaving them with an assumption that what’s been written is a fully backed up fact. The problem in this case of course is that the author tends to use newspaper and book quotes as if she’s reporting a fact. It would have been much better if she’d said something like “ ..in his book, Paul Harrison claimed that……..but he doesn’t list his source for this so we can’t confirm if it’s true or not.” I know it’s not as catchy or much of a ‘wow, really?” but it would be accurate.

Your’e suggestion makes sense but I still wish we had a photograph of the crime scene area as another explanation might have been that Helen got away and was hiding but the killer found her before she had a chance to scream out. Seeing the location would tell us if this was at least possible because it does seem strange that no one heard anything. Looking at the modern day photograph of the house from the street shows what might be an embankment but it’s certainly not a high one.



I’m probably wasting my time trying to add a photograph but here goes. From this position Helen Puttock’s house is behind you and over your left shoulder. Looking forward and over that fence you can see houses on the left. About 100 yards down is the site of Helen’s murder. You can just see the embankment on the right which isn’t very high.

As suspected, the pic is crap. Too small, even though it was ‘full size’ when I posted it. I give up on posting photos.

Sorry Herlock!

That photo doesn't look like Earl St to me.

The angle looks all wrong.

95 Earl St

https://maps.app.goo.gl/wNCGm5eHB3Kvbpw1A?g_st=ac

The embankment and railway lines should run along parallel to (and behind) the row of tenements.

Edit: Is that a grey and white cat sitting in the ground floor window of number 95?

[cobalt]

''Helen was on her own when MacDonald saw her'' (HS)

If he saw her.

Regarding Earl Street, was Helen Puttock's address 197 Earl Street? And was the back court area where she was found the one behind her own apartment block?

[rjpalmer]

''Helen was on her own when MacDonald saw her'' (HS)

If he saw her.

Regarding Earl Street, was Helen Puttock's address 197 Earl Street? And was the back court area where she was found the one behind her own apartment block?

Her address was given as 129 Earl Street in contemporary reports.

[Ms Diddles]

Hello Barn,

Thanks for your effort in contacting the author which does illustrate a problem in this case and with a problem in general. A problem in general for me is when an author puts the sources/ notes at the back of a book where not everyone will check them out leaving them with an assumption that what’s been written is a fully backed up fact. The problem in this case of course is that the author tends to use newspaper and book quotes as if she’s reporting a fact. It would have been much better if she’d said something like “ ..in his book, Paul Harrison claimed that……..but he doesn’t list his source for this so we can’t confirm if it’s true or not.” I know it’s not as catchy or much of a ‘wow, really?” but it would be accurate.

Your’e suggestion makes sense but I still wish we had a photograph of the crime scene area as another explanation might have been that Helen got away and was hiding but the killer found her before she had a chance to scream out. Seeing the location would tell us if this was at least possible because it does seem strange that no one heard anything. Looking at the modern day photograph of the house from the street shows what might be an embankment but it’s certainly not a high one.



I’m probably wasting my time trying to add a photograph but here goes. From this position Helen Puttock’s house is behind you and over your left shoulder. Looking forward and over that fence you can see houses on the left. About 100 yards down is the site of Helen’s murder. You can just see the embankment on the right which isn’t very high.

As suspected, the pic is crap. Too small, even though it was ‘full size’ when I posted it. I give up on posting photos.

Sorry, I've got my head around the angle now.

You were right Herlock.

If you climbed over the grey wall in your picture and walked in a straight line, you would be walking through all the back courts of the odd numbered tenements on Earl St.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Sorry, I've got my head around the angle now.

You were right Herlock.

If you climbed over the grey wall in your picture and walked in a straight line, you would be walking through all the back courts of the odd numbered tenements on Earl St.

That’s it Ms D. If you stood outside the tenement where Helen was found with the building on the left, Helen’s own tenement would be around 100 yards up ahead on the left. If you turned left in front of it on Balmoral Street and then looked immediately to your left that would be the view in the photo.

[Herlock Sholmes]

''Helen was on her own when MacDonald saw her'' (HS)

If he saw her.

Regarding Earl Street, was Helen Puttock's address 197 Earl Street? And was the back court area where she was found the one behind her own apartment block?

Yes…if he saw her is a fair point.

Helen lived at number 129 but her body was found at the back of number 95. So if you go on Google Earth and put yourself outside number 95 Helen’s number 129 is on the same side but a couple of blocks further along (around 100 yards)

[Herlock Sholmes]

This photo is best. I wish I could post it instead of just the link so if anyone else could do it I’d be grateful.

https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=e4dd71f640266e19&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C9BKJA_enGB704GB704&hl=en-GB&sxsrf=ADLYWII0Z-hQnANQpCxLuBkKOOaeAfH2Mg:1722541057928&q=helen+puttock+crime+scene&udm=2&fbs=AEQNm0Aa4sjWe7Rqy32pFwRj0UkWd8nbOJfsBGGB5IQQO6L3JyJJclJuzBPl12qJyPx7ESI3cvVcqCdLSFFSD0xy83MxoJT9GsX0jym-e4xPweP8FxihyLphZoGaqyL4N_ZGZaH7afxYNxDWoB_MGQjNE23VXmyvGijba30bKsYfNbHcLI2P72c2ovwK4nLRIhEFgMCMXILQe3vH9EoEuJRhiHr9WmNrlQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiBzPW-xdSHAxWsT0EAHQ1SGxwQtKgLegQICBAB&biw=1024&bih=1247&dpr=2#vhid=iTuZ5Y9ssowsPM&vssid=mosaic&ip=1

[Ms Diddles]