The One Similarity of the Bible John Murders

[Herlock Sholmes]

In the same series of books - Murder World: Scotland, Steve MacGregor wrote The Face of Bible John and A Killing At Kinky Cottage (amongst others) which is about the case that Cobalt mentions in his post. This could be a false memory but something tells me that I’ve seen a TV documentary on the case at some point.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/killing-kinky-cottage-Maxwell-Scotland/dp/1973148218

[cobalt]

As we await the critique of the book, just an observation. As I stated earlier I was a paperboy at the time of the last BJ killing in Autumn 1969 and remember well the photofit produced. We all had a laugh and suggested some neighbour or teacher. We Scots love to pull powerful people down, which is is not such a bad instinct for all its limitations.

However another most juicy, sordid, salacious, raunchy, crime was actually front page news at the time in late autumn 1969. The murder of Max Garvie, a rich farmer, by his wife and her younger lover, was very much the front page story. I should know. It made me late for my paper round as I tried to read the daily account. This was the aristocracy exposed!

The murder of poor Glasgow women who liked to let their hair down and go the dancing could not compete.

[barnflatwyngarde]

The brilliantly named Elphinstone Dalgleish in the light coat.

Yeah it's a great name.

I remember that he was very highly regarded as a tough cop who nabbed the bad guys.

Here's another photo of Carmichael Lane, giving greater detail.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Here is a photo of Carmichael Lane at the time.

You can see that the lane is quite narrow, and the absence of lighting in the lane would not have helped Goodman be certain what he was looking at.

The brilliantly named Elphinstone Dalgleish in the light coat.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,
According to Paul Harrison's book "Dancing With the Devil", Maurice Goodman found the body "at around 7.30am"(page 41).

There were no lights in the lane, and visibility at that time in the morning would have been poor.

The first police to arrive were 2 traffic police constables, but it wasn't until approximately 8.10am that DS Andrew Johnstone and DC Norman MacDonald arrived on the scene. (page 42-43).

Hi Barn,

Cheers Barn.

Now that’s a real coincidence. I don’t have the Harrison book and I meant to ask if you had it. You’ve answered that question. I was looking to get it but the only copy I can see online for sale at the moment is on EBay for £28! I’ve no problem holding out for a cheaper copy. Harrison turned out to be not exactly the most trustworthy of writers after all.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Here is a photo of Carmichael Lane at the time.

You can see that the lane is quite narrow, and the absence of lighting in the lane would not have helped Goodman be certain what he was looking at.

[barnflatwyngarde]

I just had a quick look Cobalt but I see no mention of an actual time for the discovery by Goodman. Garcia says that it was in the ‘weak winter light.’ As you say, he went back to his house to call the police. The inference appears to be that there was no evidence of any attempt to rush to the scene by the police. Garcia calls their response “slow, almost leisurely.” Strangely he also says: “There was no reason yet to label the death suspicious and it was likely assumed that the body was that of an unfortunate vagrant, or a drunk who hadn’t quite made it home from the night’s excesses.” Sadly we’ve all seen vagrants and drunks asleep in the street but I’ve never seen one completely naked.

Hi Herlock,
According to Paul Harrison's book "Dancing With the Devil", Maurice Goodman found the body "at around 7.30am"(page 41).

There were no lights in the lane, and visibility at that time in the morning would have been poor.

The first police to arrive were 2 traffic police constables, but it wasn't until approximately 8.10am that DS Andrew Johnstone and DC Norman MacDonald arrived on the scene. (page 42-43).

[Herlock Sholmes]

I just had a quick look Cobalt but I see no mention of an actual time for the discovery by Goodman. Garcia says that it was in the ‘weak winter light.’ As you say, he went back to his house to call the police. The inference appears to be that there was no evidence of any attempt to rush to the scene by the police. Garcia calls their response “slow, almost leisurely.” Strangely he also says: “There was no reason yet to label the death suspicious and it was likely assumed that the body was that of an unfortunate vagrant, or a drunk who hadn’t quite made it home from the night’s excesses.” Sadly we’ve all seen vagrants and drunks asleep in the street but I’ve never seen one completely naked.

[cobalt]

As I understand the timing, Maurice Goodman made the discovery then returned to his flat to report the matter to the police. The first to attend were traffic police and I have read somewhere that they took around 30 minutes to respond. it was only after they viewed the scene that the decision to bring in detectives was made. So although detectives arrived at 8.10 am the initial discovery by Goodman must have been closer to 7am which in February, Glasgow would be around daybreak.

Possibly before daybreak, because around 1968/69 the government (moving towards joining the EU) abolished BST and this meant Scottish schoolchildren heading off in the morning into the darkness. I had a paper delivery round at that time and can remember daybreak occurring just as I was finishing my round about 8.30am. This idiotic decision was reversed after a couple of years.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Maurice Goodman was reportedly 67 years old so maybe his eyesight was not so good. I can't find an exact time for his unfortunate discovery but it seems to have been around 7am which in February in Scotland would mean that visibility would have been quite poor. He initially thought it was a sleeping drunk blocking his garage door and tried to move the person with his foot.

None of which helps us with the puzzle of why or where the clothing was taken.

This statement by DC MacDonald makes Goodman seem less puzzling:

"There had been a heavy frost that night. We arrived about 8.10am and stopped the car at the Overdale Street end of the Lane. The body was lying with the head towards us. Initially I thought it was a man because of the thin build but when I got closer I could see it was female. She was completely naked, and there was no sign of her clothing. She was lying on her back, with the head turned to the right."

[cobalt]

Maurice Goodman was reportedly 67 years old so maybe his eyesight was not so good. I can't find an exact time for his unfortunate discovery but it seems to have been around 7am which in February in Scotland would mean that visibility would have been quite poor. He initially thought it was a sleeping drunk blocking his garage door and tried to move the person with his foot.

None of which helps us with the puzzle of why or where the clothing was taken.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve been thinking about this one Cobalt to try and come up with a remotely plausible explanation but I keep coming up dry and believe me I’ve scraped a few bottoms of barrels in the effort. I even wondered if the guy that found the body might have taken the clothes? I did recall one note that I’d made regarding his behaviour though. His name was Maurice Goodman and he kept his car in one of the garages. In his initial call to the police he’d said that the body was that of a man. He also said that the body was: “like brushing against a block of ice.” So if he got close enough to tell that, how could he not have seen that it was a woman and not a man?

I know…I’m clutching at straws.

[cobalt]

I can't see much evidence that points to the killer having a car. Barn has pointed out that the Puttock murder came via a taxi journey and that BJ was possibly witnessed on a bus afterwards. All three women were killed close to their homes which indicates, rather ironically, that BJ was able to convince them that he was walking them home safely through the dark, Glasgow streets. If BJ had a car then he would have had the means to abduct them far from where they lived.

That does leave the puzzling issue of Patricia Docker having all her clothing removed, on a cold February night. Why on earth would a killer be walking around with a duffle coat and a yellow mini dress in his bloodstained paws? Were the items dumped in the vicinity but not discovered? Or simply purloined? Unlikely since the watch and handbag were retrieved.

And if stripping the victim was so important why was the second victim not stripped? She was found in a derelict house where the removal of clothing would have been much easier to carry out. I'm stumped.

Helen Puttock put up a very good fight by all accounts and perhaps, in her death, she frightened BJ from attacking women in this fashion again. Angus Sinclair seems to have been reluctant to tackle adult women after his last victim gave him more than he bargained for: after that he resorted to his default crime of assaulting children. Maybe BJ stopped his killing spree simply due to fear of women fighting back.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Can I say the discussion has been very adult and respectful. Well done all I think. A sensitive part of our research.
yes in a lot of ways more odd than JTR 5 I think. It makes you realise actually how similar murders the canonical 5 were.

The menstruation link in these ‘bible john’ murders and differing MO with the clothing is odd the say the least. Strange as Herlock puts it.

I am just wondering if the different ways the clothing is dealt with indicates an experimental process. You know sort of try slightly different things. Not sure if we can get our heads round this.

perhaps we are thinking too deep. Perhaps serial killers don't think as much about these things as much as we assume. Perhaps they just don't care and any similarities are overplayed.

lately i think we are being led down the path of possibly different killers in the Bible john case. Maybe we just need to keep returning to what we know. I think you fantastic researchers have a big chance with this one.

Thanks NW.

The clothing factor is a strange one, why take the risk of wandering through busy areas of Glasgow carrying a bundle of women's clothing that you had just murdered?

I take your point about the possibility of there being different killers, however the similarity of factors across all three murders, to my mind, indicate a single killer.

Also the three photofits/artist impressions of the killer show a striking similarity.

[barnflatwyngarde]

I think that if we were looking at the murder of Pat Docker in isolation one alarm would perhaps be going off? One that said VEHICLE! We should always be wary of trying to think like a serial killer imo but it’s just so difficult to imagine someone carrying her clothing away with him. If he wanted a souvenir or two then you’d think that her handbag and watch would have been ideal - watch in pocket, handbag under the jacket or maybe one of those overcoats with big inside pockets? But he discards them - handbag found in the river and watch found in a puddle.

The taking of the clothing suggests perhaps that he might have had a bag with him?

Barn, haven’t you had the new book yet? Mine arrived on Thursday but as I’m on holiday they wouldn’t deliver it (it might have required a signature) so I have to go through the rigmarole when I get back. I thought that either you or MsD might have had your copies. That’s the problem with living in Scotland Barn. Those bloody Highwaymen.

I agree that the killer having a vehicle is possible, but he took a taxi with Helen Puttock and her sister Jean Langford

Also, there was a sighting of a man who closely matched the description given by Jean Langford, boarding a bus very close to the murder site.
This man was dishevelled with mud stains on his clothing and a red scratch mark under his eye.

Did he use a car occasionally?

More questions than answers.
No change there then!

Re the new book on Bible John, mine is scheduled to arrive on Wednesday.

I'm like a kid waiting for Xmas day!