Jack Wilson a.k.a. Arthur Sullivan

[MayBea]

I only ever found three Robert Bruce Wilsons born in Lancashire... I know one died in WW1.

Actually the one I was thinking about is an R. B. Wilson so I can't say if he's Robert Bruce.

The Liverpool Hall of Remembrance
PTE. R. B. WILSON "THE KING'S" (L'POOL) REGT. (10TH [SCOTTISH] BATT.)

Regardless, the only other Robert Bruce Wilson of close enough age in England was born in 1873 in Hampstead.

So this Robert Bruce Wilson wandering about drunk and disorderly and singing in public in London has to be Mary Jane Wilson's first child.

[MayBea]

I think this is definitely Liverpool MJK's first son, Robert Bruce.

He was born in 1875 so would have been 58 in 1933 and not 65, but I believe Redhill is in Surrey and his brother Arthur John Sullivan a.k.a. William John Wilson moved to Morden Surrey in 1931 (post #5).

The other results show a Robert Bruce Wilson of the same age that says he's a navy man and our Robert Bruce was in the Merchant Navy.

I only ever found three Robert Bruce Wilsons born in Lancashire. One was born in 1967, other one in 1903. I know one died in WW1.

Robert Bruce Wilson, born 1875, was thought by the family to have died in WW1 but I found his merchant navy records that proved he was alive in 1920. I don't know why Arthur would tell his children he died in the war when he was living in the neighbourhood.

[Livia]

From www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk

There's a few more like this, found by searching on
Robert Bruce Wilson.

[MayBea]

Since it's beens proven that Mary Jane Kelly was involved with the Salvation Army, I thought to take another look at this mystery of Arthur John Sullivan who's mother was a "Mary Jane Kelly" and who said "the Salvation Army saved his neck."

Does it really mean the SA saved him from being hanged?

It is is not a theory, that's what the expression means ...

But as I mentioned, he was a career soldier from the age of 14, then got married after WW1. Unless he was speaking figuratively, there was little or no chance of him being hanged.

I have this regarding executions of juveniles.

There is little actual evidence of anyone under 14 years old being hanged in the 19th century, despite what you might read in some books to the contrary.

http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/child.html

[MayBea]

There area number of reasons why people change their names. Have you seen Jack's service records?

I've looked at all of his service records. He was discharged from the, Cameron Highlanders for being medically unfit. He changed his name after that.

Do you or anyone know anything about marriage banns?

I just read that, often in marriages 'after banns', people give the same address, so they don't have to pay in two parishes.

Jack's uncle's niece, Margaret Rawlinson gave the same address on Thrawl Street as her husband, John Reardon.

[miss marple]

There area number of reasons why people change their names. Have you seen Jack's service records? If for example, he got into trouble and was dishonourably discharged from one regiment, but wanted to stay in the army, he would change his name to join another regiment as in the 1940s the murderer Neville Heath did.

I' m not saying that he was in trouble with the army, but they may have other reasons why he changed his name, maybe he was a spy, or had gambling or financial debts. The army was a good cover to escape a lot of trouble.
Or perhaps he was married bigamously, that does pop up in family trees,

Miss Marple

[MayBea]

Alright, Miss Marple.

You've explained and maybe solved the mystery of the one 'mysterious' phrase. But that doesn't explain everything.

What about the name change and the denying of his real identity to the Camerons officer?

What about the secret papers that "would explain everything" but were lost?

Why did he act like he knew absolutely nothing about his parents, not even that they were deceased, but only that they were a baker and a Kelly?

[miss marple]

There was a Salvation army presence in Liverpool in the 1880s.

Miss Marple

[miss marple]

Just to add, had he joined the Salvation Army as a child, his musical talent would have been nurtured. The army are famous for their brass bands and many children learn music through playing in the bands, this would have been an asset When Jack joined the regular army.
I once met talented professional brass player who had developed his skills by being in the SA as a child.

Miss Marple

[miss marple]

It is is not a theory, that's what the expression means, if the grandchild is ignorant of English idiom , that would create a misunderstanding, inventing mysteries happens a lot in family histories.
Jack could have been in a Salvation Army orphanage or been influenced by them as a child,children could join the sal army and also learn to play an instrument.
Many orphan boys went on to join the regular army or navy, the boys were taught discipline and good habits. The services were regarded as a good career and a way out of poverty and crime.
The Salvation Army did indeed save many necks in the East End.

Miss Marple

[MayBea]

'Saved his neck' has a very specific meaning. Not ending up hanged. The Salvation army' saved his neck' by looking after him and leading him towards a respectable life....

"The Salvation Army saved me from being hanged...by looking after me and leading me to a respectable life!"

That's a nice theory, miss marple. But why would a grandchild think it was a clue to a mystery-event that actually happened, not might have happened?

And anyway, when would this Sally Ann intervention have happened?

Jack was a career soldier from the age of 14. He would likely have been in orphanages all the years prior to that. Did he steal something as a boy and get caught?

The only other possibility I can think of is he was recruited by the IRA when he was in Dublin for a period of time after his discharge from the Camerons, and the Sally Ann helped him get away from them.

[miss marple]

'Saved his neck' has a very specific meaning. Not ending up hanged. The Salvation army' saved his neck' by looking after him and leading him towards a respectable life. Had he ended up on the streets he might have fell in with a bad crowd and might possibly have ended up a murderous criminal, or not maybe, but the sally army intervention changed his future.

Miss Marple

[MayBea]

I found William John Wilson in the 1901 Census at the Wavertree Ophanage in Liverpool. He is 13.

His place of birth is listed as Not Known. I think this puts into question his alleged birth in Liverpool, as reported on other documents, and throws into doubt his alleged paternity, that being Robert Wilson of Liverpool, who died of TB in January of 1890.

[MayBea]

All the usual avenues of research have been exhausted. I can think of no other places to look for clues.

Jack Wilson/Sullivan was 'regularly' published in the magazine Titbits, sometime prior to his death in 1967, presumably letters to the editor. That might yield some clues but I doubt it.

My conclusions have to be based on what has been found so far. That includes a marriage certificate proving his uncle's niece was living on Thrawl Street in April of 1887.

Seeing no objection, I'm going to use this as a springboard into the main discussion boards, with my conclusions, based on this case, of course being Ripper related. ?

[MayBea]

WAS HIS NAME ARTHUR JOHN SULLIVAN? What other name was he known by? It appears he also changed his date of birth. I hope perhaps some information might come to light by tracing his army records.

[His army records have been found and proved only that his real name was William John Wilson, subsequently confirmed by birth record.]