University of Idaho Stabbings

[Ally]

im confused. they have circumstantial, forensic and eyewitness testimony.not just circumstantial. not only that circumstantial evidence is not only allowed in court, its enough to get people convicted by itself.

Believe it or not, forensic evidence is largely considered circumstantial, not direct evidence. Because it requires inference. For example, a video or eyewitness showing him putting the knife sheath on the bed is direct evidence. His dna being found on the knife sheath is only circumstantial evidence that he placed the knife sheath on the bed. Or that he handled the knife sheath. You can infer that he was there, and handled the knife sheath, from his DNA being on it, but it is an inference, not direct knowledge.

[Aethelwulf]

The evidence may be circumstantial, but is adding up.

There was a docu on a couple of months ago narrated by Colin Sutton and his team about how they nailed that evil f****r Levi Bellfield. One thing that struck me was that Sutton said that all of the evidence was circumstantial and based largely on CCTV. There wasn't any actual physical evidence as far as I recall.

The DNA plus the circumstantial stuff must surely nail this guy.

[cobalt]

The eye witness evidence in this case is obviously open to question: a passing glimpse of an intruder with his mouth and nose covered under poor lighting. We are assuming that the rough description of the intruder was later matched to the suspect but I do not know if this is the correct order of events. Once BK became a suspect it may be that the police re-interviewed the witness DM and coached her, wittingly or unwittingly, into the description that has been made public.

I am not convinced that cell phone data pinging off towers is a reliable indicator of a person’s specific location. The suspect may well have had good reason to be in the general area of Moscow, Idaho on around a dozen occasions late at night.

The strongest evidence available so far is surely the forensic DNA link to the knife pouch found at the property. In itself that doesn’t prove BK ever entered the house- the knife might have been stolen/lost earlier- but it’s perfectly good grounds to place him before a jury. The CCTV footage of a white Hyundai arriving and leaving the immediate area at the presumed time of the murders is also pretty damning; but the prosecution would have to establish that the car in the footage is actually the suspect’s car and also that he was the person driving it at the time.

[Abby Normal]

The evidence may be circumstantial, but is adding up. The white Elantra was seen near the house at about the presumed time of the deaths, and there was a report of it in the neighboring state's university parking lot.

One survivor among the house occupants was awake, and described seeing a man fitting the suspect's description inside the home.

They were able to get a DNA sample from trash at the suspect's parents' home that returned likely results of being from the suspect's father.

A print was found on the button clasp of the tan sheath found at the scene that matches the suspect.

I'm amazed at how fast the investigation has moved so far. And also amazed at how the suspect seems to have overestimated his skill at fooling local police.

im confused. they have circumstantial, forensic and eyewitness testimony.not just circumstantial. not only that circumstantial evidence is not only allowed in court, its enough to get people convicted by itself.

[Ally]

Personally, I've never understood why people say evidence is "just circumstantial". I'll take DNA evidence over an eye witness any day of the week. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. And proven to be so. I've never understood why people consider it the gold star standard, as if people aren't fooled by their eyes all the time. The police in this have done an amazing job, especially considering the shin kicking they've been getting from idiots on the internet and some of the parents, who apparently think criminal procedures proceed like they do on TV with the cops bumbling around telling everyone everything that's going on and solving it in an hour.

This small town police force did an amazing job from the get go, knew they needed help, asked for that help, kept their lids on, and walked through every thing with meticulous precision. They deserve massive kudos for how they have conducted themselves in this from the jump.

[Pcdunn]

The evidence may be circumstantial, but is adding up. The white Elantra was seen near the house at about the presumed time of the deaths, and there was a report of it in the neighboring state's university parking lot.

One survivor among the house occupants was awake, and described seeing a man fitting the suspect's description inside the home.

They were able to get a DNA sample from trash at the suspect's parents' home that returned likely results of being from the suspect's father.

A print was found on the button clasp of the tan sheath found at the scene that matches the suspect.

I'm amazed at how fast the investigation has moved so far. And also amazed at how the suspect seems to have overestimated his skill at fooling local police.

[Abby Normal]

No real way of knowing, yet. The most broad speculation would just be that he ran across one of them somewhere or the two girls who were friends (since it appears he might have been following them on instagram though that is just internet "sleuthing" conjecture, and not proven yet) but he could have run across them and just ...followed them home. It's possible he tagged them in a bar or a grocery store or at the mall, and just followed them.

We know he was circling their house for weeks prior to the murders so it may just have been as simple as "random victims" chosen from a "random spot". Although I imagine he was "hunting" spots with a lot of college girls, and he selected them. As a criminology student (albeit a **** one) he would have known that the random victim without any actual ties to him was the "safest" choice. Assuming you don't leave your knife sheath with your DNA all over it at the murder scene.

that all makes sense. also, as you mentioned, it was known as a party house.. maybe he was there before at a party. or if he was following them on instagram, if they or friends ever mentioned on instagram their address to advertise a party or something along those lines.

[Ally]

anyone have a clue how he found out where they lived??

No real way of knowing, yet. The most broad speculation would just be that he ran across one of them somewhere or the two girls who were friends (since it appears he might have been following them on instagram though that is just internet "sleuthing" conjecture, and not proven yet) but he could have run across them and just ...followed them home. It's possible he tagged them in a bar or a grocery store or at the mall, and just followed them.

We know he was circling their house for weeks prior to the murders so it may just have been as simple as "random victims" chosen from a "random spot". Although I imagine he was "hunting" spots with a lot of college girls, and he selected them. As a criminology student (albeit a **** one) he would have known that the random victim without any actual ties to him was the "safest" choice. Assuming you don't leave your knife sheath with your DNA all over it at the murder scene.

[Abby Normal]

I've heard reports that his phone pinged outside the house around 9am following the murders, so perhaps he was contemplating going back inside to retrieve the sheath, and/or wondering why the heck the place wasn't covered in cop cars and crime scene tape if he knew he'd been seen.

the location if the sheath is interesting because it was found next to the girls on the third floor..so they were probably murdered first, and points to them being targeted.

Im wondering how he could have found out where they lived? it seems he didnt follow them home that night, but drove there after they were already home.

anyone have a clue how he found out where they lived??

[Abby Normal]

And of course to take that one step further, he did walk right past her as if he didn't see her. Which everyone views as suspicious, I don't particularly as it's possible that he was in the grip of a massive adrenaline surge, and tunnel vision had him focusing on the door and "escape" having done what he'd come to do. It's entirely possible he never actually saw her. Adrenaline is proven to narrow your field of vision to whatever you are focused on to the exclusion of external factors. I believe it's actually possible he didn't see her, even as he walked right past her. I mean, he forgot his KNIFE SHEATH. Which means he was walking out of there with an unsheathed, bloody knife and didn't seem to grasp that he'd left without what he came in with, which appears to be tunnel "escape once it's over" vision to me.

So she's tired, drunk, possibly high and a guy walks right past her like she's not there. I can totally see her questioning reality and being like...well did that really happen and rationalizing like, "well if he were really a threat, he clearly wouldn't have just ignored me and walked out like nothing, so ... lock the door because regardless she was shocked and scared, but rationalizing it like, well if he had bad intentions, he wouldn't have just ignored me and walked out.

People always think they know how they would respond in these situations. And unless you've ever been in one, you really don't. There is no "normal" response to something like this. There's about 5 dozen normal responses and you don't know what yours will be til you are confronted by it.

totally agree, good talk.

[Joshua Rogan]

I've heard reports that his phone pinged outside the house around 9am following the murders, so perhaps he was contemplating going back inside to retrieve the sheath, and/or wondering why the heck the place wasn't covered in cop cars and crime scene tape if he knew he'd been seen.

[Ally]

... maybe just shocked that a stranger was in the house, so went back and fell back asleep. and of course, being drunk may have something to do with her behavior too.

And of course to take that one step further, he did walk right past her as if he didn't see her. Which everyone views as suspicious, I don't particularly as it's possible that he was in the grip of a massive adrenaline surge, and tunnel vision had him focusing on the door and "escape" having done what he'd come to do. It's entirely possible he never actually saw her. Adrenaline is proven to narrow your field of vision to whatever you are focused on to the exclusion of external factors. I believe it's actually possible he didn't see her, even as he walked right past her. I mean, he forgot his KNIFE SHEATH. Which means he was walking out of there with an unsheathed, bloody knife and didn't seem to grasp that he'd left without what he came in with, which appears to be tunnel "escape once it's over" vision to me.

So she's tired, drunk, possibly high and a guy walks right past her like she's not there. I can totally see her questioning reality and being like...well did that really happen and rationalizing like, "well if he were really a threat, he clearly wouldn't have just ignored me and walked out like nothing, so ... lock the door because regardless she was shocked and scared, but rationalizing it like, well if he had bad intentions, he wouldn't have just ignored me and walked out.

People always think they know how they would respond in these situations. And unless you've ever been in one, you really don't. There is no "normal" response to something like this. There's about 5 dozen normal responses and you don't know what yours will be til you are confronted by it.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby, I am not sure what your question is to be honest. They did all live there (except the boyfriend). My point was, it was a huge party house, and a couple of weeks prior, there had been a huge party there, where the people who did live there... weren't home. Their house had a numeric lock on the door, and loads of people had access to it, so that people could come and go as they please.

I am not saying she wasn't shocked to have a guy in the house at 4 am, but also... it wasn't unusual. So not knowing what was going on, and probably under the influence of things, she probably went back to her room, locked the door and proceeded to sleep off the combined effects of the evening. Considering the people constantly going in and out of the house it wasn't unusual to have randoms in their house, and her first thought probably wasn't "knife wielding murderer". And yes, he was masked ... the lower part of his face. Like a covid mask. I can see a lot of ways a not so bright, sleep-deprived, possibly inebriated person could rationalize that there was nothing "wrong-wrong" when people were constantly walking in and out of their house because they gave out the key code to everyone and their second cousin.

got it. i misunderstood you..I thought you were talking about the night of the murder when you said none of the people lived there. and i thought he was wearing a ski mask. my bad.

however she did say she was frozen in shock as he walked by, so it sounds like she knew something was very amiss. but i see your point. maybe at the time she was shocked, but had no clue how bad it really was... maybe just shocked that a stranger was in the house, so went back and fell back asleep. and of course, being drunk may have something to do with her behavior too.

[Ally]

Hi Abby, I am not sure what your question is to be honest. They did all live there (except the boyfriend). My point was, it was a huge party house, and a couple of weeks prior, there had been a huge party there, where the people who did live there... weren't home. Their house had a numeric lock on the door, and loads of people had access to it, so that people could come and go as they please.

I am not saying she wasn't shocked to have a guy in the house at 4 am, but also... it wasn't unusual. So not knowing what was going on, and probably under the influence of things, she probably went back to her room, locked the door and proceeded to sleep off the combined effects of the evening. Considering the people constantly going in and out of the house it wasn't unusual to have randoms in their house, and her first thought probably wasn't "knife wielding murderer". And yes, he was masked ... the lower part of his face. Like a covid mask. I can see a lot of ways a not so bright, sleep-deprived, possibly inebriated person could rationalize that there was nothing "wrong-wrong" when people were constantly walking in and out of their house because they gave out the key code to everyone and their second cousin.

[erobitha]

hi Ally
i thought it was only the male murder victim who didnt live there, and he was with his girlfriend. i was under the impression that all the female murder victims as well as the two surviving people all lived there.

however, i see your first point, having two college age kids i do know when they dont have work or school they can easily sleep till noonish, especially when up late the night before partying. still the one surviving roomate came face to face with the masked intruder, and said herself she was shocked and terrified, so she knew something was amiss almost immediately.

My thoughts exactly. By all accounts they were scared enough to lock themselves into their room but also too scared to call 911 until noon?

It just doesn’t add up.