zodiac

[Observer]

yes he was, but honestly I dont know if his duties in the Navy directly involved ciphers.

I don't know what percentage of Navy personnel are involved in the deciphering of codes, but I wouldn't have thought it was very high. I know if I'd of been involved in such work in the Navy, and then decided to go around bumping people off at random, I wouldn't attempt to wind up the police by sending ciphers detailing my activities. But then again I'm not the Zodiac.

[Observer]

also two friends corroberatted this fact and told police he basically confessed that he was going to do exactly what he did do-call himself zodiac and hunt people down, just like the book A Most Dangerous game, which he loved.

Would you tell friends

You would like to kill random couples
You would taunt police by sending letters detailing crimes
You would "sign" the letters using the cross hairs symbol from your watch
You would call yourself Zodiac
You would disguise yourself
You would attach a flashlight to your gun in order to shoot at night
You would fool women by alerting them something was wrong with their cars, and then loosen their wheel nuts later capturing them as they broke down

Would you tell two friends this, and then go out and do exactly that?

I believe this information was given in 1972, after the fact. Doesn't take a genius to work out what's going on here.

[Abby Normal]

Did Allen's duties whilst in the Navy involve him in the use of ciphers? He only served two years, and I believe he was dishonorably discharged

yes he was, but honestly I dont know if his duties in the Navy directly involved ciphers.

[Observer]

Arthur Leigh Allen was ex military-Navy. they use alot of ciphers in the navy.

Did Allen's duties whilst in the Navy involve him in the use of ciphers? He only served two years, and I believe he was dishonorably discharged

[Observer]

at the time of the stine murder ala had what could be described as a crew cut (especially viewed from a distance and at night, as was the case when the kids saw him), yes he had a receding hairline too. a brown haired wig was also found at his residence, what he might have worn under his hood if hartnel did in fact see a shock of brown hair.

while i do think the prints and dna is a check mark against his candidacy, i think he disguised his handwriting and the prints/dna evidence isnt solid enough to clear him.far from it especially considering all the other evidence against as listed in my first post.

Hi AN

ALA was 36 at the time of the Stine murder, and had considerable hair loss at that time. Those kids reported seeing a man with a crew cut, I think if it had been ALA down there they would have noticed ALA's lack of hair. Again, I believe we'll have to agree to disagree with regard to the evidence concerning hair style.

Regarding the wig found in ALA's trailer, have you a reference for this? The police reported that nothing incriminating was found at the trailer. If a wig was found, listen I'll agree, Allen was a shady character, it could be that the wig was intended to be used for the pursuit of shady activities, but then it could also mean that Allen was vain, and bought it to disguise his baldness.

Regarding the hand writing, Allen didn't know the cops were going to raid his trailer, so the hand writing retrieved would have been a true example of his hand writing. None resembled Zodiac's hand writing.

[Abby Normal]

His little cross-circle symbol was later found to have mathematical significance too, yes?

I can see why Ted Kaczynski was briefly suspected of being the Zodiac Killer when he was first apprehended.

Yes I think the symbol had some kind of geometrical/angle significance that they were trying to match up with something he put in a letter, but of far more importance is that he had a zodiac watch which had the same exact cross circle symbol as its logo on it, given to him as a gift by his mother a couple years before the murders. also two friends corroberatted this fact and told police he basically confessed that he was going to do exactly what he did do-call himself zodiac and hunt people down, just like the book A Most Dangerous game, which he loved.

yes the unabomber was and still is a suspect to some, one of the admins on the site i listed is way big on him, and has posted alot of similarities and reasons he thinks he was the zodiac. IMHO alot of it is intersting but too much of a stretch for me.

[Abby Normal]

Hi AN

I can certainly see why ALA is your number one suspect, the evidence against him on the surface of it seems considerable. However, (and we'll have to agree to disagree on this point) I do believe he was rightly forensically cleared. Also, LE obtained samples of his hand writing when they raided his trailer, it didn't match any of the Zodiac submitted correspondence.

Regarding the hair situation, the kids in the house overlooking the Stine murder said that the man they saw wiping down the cab, (in effect the Zodiac Killer) had a crew cut. At that time I thing I'm correct in stating that ALA had extensive hair loss to the rear of his head. I'm not saying that a crew cut type wig is an impossibility, but it seems to me as if this was Zodiac's natural hair.

at the time of the stine murder ala had what could be described as a crew cut (especially viewed from a distance and at night, as was the case when the kids saw him), yes he had a receding hairline too. a brown haired wig was also found at his residence, what he might have worn under his hood if hartnel did in fact see a shock of brown hair.

while i do think the prints and dna is a check mark against his candidacy, i think he disguised his handwriting and the prints/dna evidence isnt solid enough to clear him.far from it especially considering all the other evidence against as listed in my first post.

[Damaso Marte]

His little cross-circle symbol was later found to have mathematical significance too, yes?

I can see why Ted Kaczynski was briefly suspected of being the Zodiac Killer when he was first apprehended.

[Abby Normal]

Arthur Leigh Allen was ex military-Navy. they use alot of ciphers in the navy.

[Michael W Richards]

I believe that when you compile what is known you cant avoid seeing a police officer or ex-miltary. Ex military being the most probable, due to the complexity of the ciphers he uses.

[Observer]

hi obs

the main thing found at his house that was the exact same type of typewriter that the killer of bates used. also i beleive they found a hoard of weapons, bomb making stuff and wigs and disguises. im going off memory though because i havent really thought about the zodiac case in quite some time.

yes hartnell said he saw a shock of brown greasy hair underneath the mask. but the z was wearing sunglasses over his eye openings so that has been questioned as how he could have seen hair.but even if he did its such a insignificant detail and some have posited that z was wearing a wig underneath rhe hood/ mask.

re the forensic stuff, i pretty much already gave my thoughts on that in the previous post.

many of the police who investigated thiught allen was the best suspect. the problem is there just not enough evidence to charge and convict.

as i said im not 100 percent sure it was allen, just that i lean heavily he was and think hes the best suspect. that being said i think a handful of the other main suspects look intriguing too.

Hi AN

I can certainly see why ALA is your number one suspect, the evidence against him on the surface of it seems considerable. However, (and we'll have to agree to disagree on this point) I do believe he was rightly forensically cleared. Also, LE obtained samples of his hand writing when they raided his trailer, it didn't match any of the Zodiac submitted correspondence.

Regarding the hair situation, the kids in the house overlooking the Stine murder said that the man they saw wiping down the cab, (in effect the Zodiac Killer) had a crew cut. At that time I thing I'm correct in stating that ALA had extensive hair loss to the rear of his head. I'm not saying that a crew cut type wig is an impossibility, but it seems to me as if this was Zodiac's natural hair.

[Abby Normal]

IMO it's only a matter of time until the zodiacs identity is undisputably proven. In 2018 they used the same DNA testing which was employed to successfully identify the GSK and to me the fact there hasn't been any update suggests they've got something from it. If the test was a failure they would've almost certainly already said so.

I'm guessing the FBI already know the identity and are currently building a case against the person, especially if they are still alive, so they have a solid case in court. Reasons for this could be only a partial DNA match or incomplete DNA. Both of which could struggle to achieve conviction.

Alternatively, even if the Zodiac DNA testing failed their is still a chance that the Santa Rosa Hitchhiker Killer DNA test could also catch the zodiac if they're the same person. This would be due to the fact in 2018 the SRHK also had the GSK DNA testing done which due to the method of the hitchhike killings the police almost certainly have many sample complete DNA from the SRHK. The results from this DNA testing have likewise been suspiciously quiet. It might even be because they've got a partial match between both the Zodiacs and SRHK DNA.

It honestly wouldn't surprise me if the FBI name a suspects within months.

While it is definitely an interesting case I just feel we don't have as much insight into the investigation as we do JtR and for that reason I'm personally not as interested.

Out of interest what is everyone's thoughts about the Zodiac and SRHK being the same person. I know it's a topic of debate amongst the Zodiac community and even if ALA isn't the Zodiac he's suspected of just being the SRHK. Potential clues connecting the two unknown killers is in one of his final letters, the Zodiac talks about how he's no longer going to announce his kills and how he's going to change his style of killing. If you add the SRHK victims to the Zodiacs you get much closer to the number the Zodiac claimed.

hi ast
i hadnt heard of of the srhk. i did a quick check on wiki. wow so depressing the number murders and serial killers around at the time, especially in ca. just shocking and heartbreaking.

do you know how they linked the seven main cases? was it by dna? or just MO/ sig and other evidence?

after a quick perusal this looks like classic hillside strangler cases. hitchhiker abductions with rape and torture and then dumping mostly off the side of roads. i doubt these are zodiac killings, unless he escalated to rape, which is possible of course. they just look almost identical to the hillside strangler case- can you elaborate why bianci and buono arent more of a suspect in this case?

re the dna.. im not as optimistic as you the dna testing for the zodiac in either case will catch the zodiac. i dont really think they have the zodiacs dna or enough of it. i hope im wrong.

hopefully they can at least catch the srhk with it.

[Astatine211]

IMO it's only a matter of time until the zodiacs identity is undisputably proven. In 2018 they used the same DNA testing which was employed to successfully identify the GSK and to me the fact there hasn't been any update suggests they've got something from it. If the test was a failure they would've almost certainly already said so.

I'm guessing the FBI already know the identity and are currently building a case against the person, especially if they are still alive, so they have a solid case in court. Reasons for this could be only a partial DNA match or incomplete DNA. Both of which could struggle to achieve conviction.

Alternatively, even if the Zodiac DNA testing failed their is still a chance that the Santa Rosa Hitchhiker Killer DNA test could also catch the zodiac if they're the same person. This would be due to the fact in 2018 the SRHK also had the GSK DNA testing done which due to the method of the hitchhike killings the police almost certainly have many sample complete DNA from the SRHK. The results from this DNA testing have likewise been suspiciously quiet. It might even be because they've got a partial match between both the Zodiacs and SRHK DNA.

It honestly wouldn't surprise me if the FBI name a suspects within months.

While it is definitely an interesting case I just feel we don't have as much insight into the investigation as we do JtR and for that reason I'm personally not as interested.

Out of interest what is everyone's thoughts about the Zodiac and SRHK being the same person. I know it's a topic of debate amongst the Zodiac community and even if ALA isn't the Zodiac he's suspected of just being the SRHK. Potential clues connecting the two unknown killers is in one of his final letters, the Zodiac talks about how he's no longer going to announce his kills and how he's going to change his style of killing. If you add the SRHK victims to the Zodiacs you get much closer to the number the Zodiac claimed.

[Abby Normal]

Hi AN

To which incriminatory evidence do refer which was found at ALA's house?

Guns were found, non matched the ballistics of Zodiac Killers weapons.

The Zodiac watch in my opinion was one of those huge coincidences which crop up now and then, nothing more.

His hand writing did not match any of the Zodiac correspondence. Neither did his fingerprints match those found on the Stine cab, nor the palm print on the Exorcist letter.

Hartnell noticed that Zodiac had brown hair, considering that he had on a hood at the time, I'd say ALA who's hair was receding at the time of the Lake Berryessa murder could not have provided Hartnell a glimpse of his hair.

None of the DNA they do have matched ALA

LE were desperate to apprehend Zodiac, ALA was certainly on their radar, I believe it speaks volumes he faded from their investigation

hi obs

the main thing found at his house that was the exact same type of typewriter that the killer of bates used. also i beleive they found a hoard of weapons, bomb making stuff and wigs and disguises. im going off memory though because i havent really thought about the zodiac case in quite some time.

yes hartnell said he saw a shock of brown greasy hair underneath the mask. but the z was wearing sunglasses over his eye openings so that has been questioned as how he could have seen hair.but even if he did its such a insignificant detail and some have posited that z was wearing a wig underneath rhe hood/ mask.

re the forensic stuff, i pretty much already gave my thoughts on that in the previous post.

many of the police who investigated thiught allen was the best suspect. the problem is there just not enough evidence to charge and convict.

as i said im not 100 percent sure it was allen, just that i lean heavily he was and think hes the best suspect. that being said i think a handful of the other main suspects look intriguing too.

[Observer]

what i found intersting from the recently solved cipher is that one of tje first thing the zodiac says was that guy from the tv was not me. interesting parallel to the dear boss letter where on of the first thing the writer says was leather apron was not me.

The intentional misspelling of the letters, I'm sure Zodiac wasn't as illiterate as the letters imply, mirrors certain Ripper letters. I'm sure it's just coincidence though.