The Murder of Julia Wallace (1931) - Full DPP case files

[WallaceWackedHer]

I think it's the opposite, and in fact when arguing for his guilt I say he went upstairs to pretend he didn't already know his wife was dead in the parlour.

I really wouldn't draw conclusions from that. It's weak evidence. It's advanced knowledge that I think would be a stronger clue... For example, when I first read about this case I didn't realize he called "Julia?" when he went into the house. Something like that would show advanced knowledge that he shouldn't have... Basically anything that shows he knows exactly what he's going to find in there before he even gets in there.

If he did go upstairs I'm not entirely sure what this accomplishes for him unless he's trying to put on a facade of innocence (like "see, I didn't even know she was in the parlour!").

The only real possibility is checking rooms he'd used after killing Julia. It does appear, though, that the upstairs was not used by the killer... The bath hadn't been used recently, the toilet and sink basin came back clean (even though there was that small clot in the toilet so hmm), the towel was dry, the nail brush was free from blood... If he changed upstairs in the bedroom after killing her it's quite possible, but I'd expect someone relying on speed and a squeaky clean crime scene to have the outfit downstairs ready to go... Plus changing clothes etc. is starting to add time on to how long it will take him to leave the house after the killing which must be factored in.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes what happened is the officer advised trying 25 Menlove Avenue, then Wallace asked the policeman if he knew where he might find a directory. He benefits in absolutely no way at all by NOT going to 25 Menlove Avenue, so this absolutely should not be considered indicative of guilt. Moreso the opposite, since going to Menlove Avenue would help him stay out longer which apparently is what people think his goal was.

It's important to note he's not desperately concerned about his wife's safety. If you imagine this is you in this situation, are you really going to rush home and kick the door in like "JULIA WHAT'S HAPPENED?!" like, it wouldn't be natural to legitimately assume she's been beaten to death or even in grave danger. A sense of uncertainty would be expected, not panic. When he arrived home he was considering what might be happening, maybe she's gone to the post box, etc. That's precisely what I would expect, someone in that situation would come up with innocent explanations for what's happening.

That cupboard door was already broken and had been shoddily repaired as I recall? It's completely natural that you would assume the same thing had happened again.

If he had gone straight for the parlour I'd say he KNEW she was in there. A sick wife is going to be in bed if anywhere, I think we can agree that if this was a totally normal day, and you arrived home with your fully alive sick wife somewhere in the house, and especially if it's relatively late, you would assume she's in bed. Right? I mean he's not playing hide and seek with her.

If he's guilty I 100% certainly think he went upstairs simply to try to give the impression he's innocent (because an innocent man would definitely go to the bedroom - and going to the parlour first would suggest advanced knowledge)... Or alternatively he is legitimately innocent and not trying to give any impression... Alternative explanations for the behaviour don't make sense... Just play-acting innocence to hide guilt, or actual innocence.

Wallace knew that the address was Menlove Gardens and not Menlove Avenue. Beattie had written it down and Wallace heard him relay the message. He’s had Sidney Green tell him that there was no such place as MGE. Then even more conclusively Constable Serjeant tells him there’s no such place. Wallace still isn’t satisfied. It’s off to the PO then the newsagents where Lily Pinches becomes the third person to tell him that MGE doesn’t exist. At the very least this is remarkable persistence.

How concerned about his wife’s safety is Wallace? Well as soon as he sees the Johnston’s he asks: “Have you heard any suspicious noises in my house during the last hour or so?” This doesn’t appear to be someone thinking that his wife might be ill. He can’t get in - this has never happened before. No one is responding. He finally gets inside to find the lights off and the house in silence. Then he goes into the kitchen: “I walked in by the back kitchen door. I found the kitchen light out. I lit it and found signs of a disturbance in the kitchen. A wooden case in which I kept photographic stuff in had been broken open and the lid was on the floor.” All innocent explanations have vanished by now. Now I’ll say what you said in your post. Put yourself in Wallace’s position. He’s at the door from the kitchen to the hallway, believing that something untoward had happened to his wife. She’s not in the back kitchen or the kitchen. The Parlour door is within reach. Two seconds and he either finds his wife or eliminates that room. Why on earth would he go upstairs first? Rod used to stress the fact that the Parlour was only used for special occasions. For visitors yes. But Julia’s piano was in there. There was a sideboard containing items that she might have wanted to get. It wasn’t a rarely used shrine.

Going into the Parlour after leaving the kitchen would have been the natural, obvious thing to have done. I’d say that 999 out of a 1000 in that situation would have checked the Parlour first. By ignoring the obvious next place Wallace looks like a man who wanted to leave the Parlour until last. A man with an plan.

[moste]

The fact he didn't go to Menlove Avenue is in favour of his innocence, not guilt... Cui bono, who benefits? What does he gain from NOT going there and returning home instead? The only thing he gains by not checking that address, is that people can use it against him. There is absolutely no benefit for him.

Think of it from his perspective if he's an innocent man:

He went to the officer who told him to see a directory. He goes to the directory and sees a person of that name does not live in the area, nor is there a Menlove Gardens East.

Wolverton Street had been burgled only one month earlier and here is a man who is beginning to become just a touch anxious (upon seeing there is no person with such a name) that his home may have been burgled.

This is more consistent with his actions.

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Btw about the bad place to be knocking about thing: Perhaps the area was nice, but a skeleton key housebreaking gang was operating in that area at the time. I think a group had just been arrested recently for breaking into one of the Menlove Gardens homes... So perhaps the area was nice, but the people who came there from elsewhere to do no good were not so nice.

Or a simple error.

I do believe Wallace guilty, though I also believe I possess the mind set of one who is capable of taking in the facts (as much as we know of them) and using common sense to decide ‘why a person does or doesn’t act in a particular way in a particular situation. I am not claiming Wallace’s guilt because he neglected to call at 25 Menlove avenue , even though he was advised to by others ,to do so. I’m simply pointing out , virtually passing that address when he is on the other side of town on a cold winters night, is odd.
While on the subject. It’s claimed he didn’t need to bother with the Menlove Gardens addresses that were even numbered , (no number 25s.) Isn’t it odd that since he had been given a message second hand, (by someone for all he knew may have been relating a message second hand) He didn’t think to knock on numbers 24 or 26 of those streets? Just in case the number related was in error. Incidentally ,a directory will only give the householder, not a visitor , lodger , brother-in-law,etc. Just saying.
On the Allerton break ins . Your saying a club member had read about an incident in Allerton,with reference to a burglary , so warned Wallace about going there? Ha Ha that’s funny.
Anyhow keep up the good archival searching WWH. Awesome stuff.

[WallaceWackedHer]

I don’t think that Constable Serjeant actually advised Wallace to look at a directory. I think Wallace actually asked him where he could see one and Serjeant mentioned that he could try the Police Station or the PO. Serjeant told Wallace categorically that there was no MGE confirming what he’d already been told and yet Wallace persisted in his search. Let’s face it, who is more likely to know the streets than a policeman on the beat. Wallace, at the end of his search, said that he’d started to become concerned. Why only then and not when he’d been told 3 times that MGE didn’t exist?

We’re never going to agree on the issue of Wallace avoiding the Parlour but I’d say that if someone is searching they would look in the order of the locations that they came too. Wallace saw that the cupboard door was ripped of so all hope of an innocent explanation would have vanished. I just can’t believe that a man, desperately concerned about his wife’s safety, would have reached the kitchen door with the Parlour door within reach and then made a decision based upon percentages regarding which rooms were used the most. It just doesn’t make sense. I’m convinced that a guilty Wallace deliberately left the Parlour until last.

Yes what happened is the officer advised trying 25 Menlove Avenue, then Wallace asked the policeman if he knew where he might find a directory. He benefits in absolutely no way at all by NOT going to 25 Menlove Avenue, so this absolutely should not be considered indicative of guilt. Moreso the opposite, since going to Menlove Avenue would help him stay out longer which apparently is what people think his goal was.

It's important to note he's not desperately concerned about his wife's safety. If you imagine this is you in this situation, are you really going to rush home and kick the door in like "JULIA WHAT'S HAPPENED?!" like, it wouldn't be natural to legitimately assume she's been beaten to death or even in grave danger. A sense of uncertainty would be expected, not panic. When he arrived home he was considering what might be happening, maybe she's gone to the post box, etc. That's precisely what I would expect, someone in that situation would come up with innocent explanations for what's happening.

That cupboard door was already broken and had been shoddily repaired as I recall? It's completely natural that you would assume the same thing had happened again.

If he had gone straight for the parlour I'd say he KNEW she was in there. A sick wife is going to be in bed if anywhere, I think we can agree that if this was a totally normal day, and you arrived home with your fully alive sick wife somewhere in the house, and especially if it's relatively late, you would assume she's in bed. Right? I mean he's not playing hide and seek with her.

If he's guilty I 100% certainly think he went upstairs simply to try to give the impression he's innocent (because an innocent man would definitely go to the bedroom - and going to the parlour first would suggest advanced knowledge)... Or alternatively he is legitimately innocent and not trying to give any impression... Alternative explanations for the behaviour don't make sense... Just play-acting innocence to hide guilt, or actual innocence.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don’t think that Constable Serjeant actually advised Wallace to look at a directory. I think Wallace actually asked him where he could see one and Serjeant mentioned that he could try the Police Station or the PO. Serjeant told Wallace categorically that there was no MGE confirming what he’d already been told and yet Wallace persisted in his search. Let’s face it, who is more likely to know the streets than a policeman on the beat. Wallace, at the end of his search, said that he’d started to become concerned. Why only then and not when he’d been told 3 times that MGE didn’t exist?

We’re never going to agree on the issue of Wallace avoiding the Parlour but I’d say that if someone is searching they would look in the order of the locations that they came too. Wallace saw that the cupboard door was ripped of so all hope of an innocent explanation would have vanished. I just can’t believe that a man, desperately concerned about his wife’s safety, would have reached the kitchen door with the Parlour door within reach and then made a decision based upon percentages regarding which rooms were used the most. It just doesn’t make sense. I’m convinced that a guilty Wallace deliberately left the Parlour until last.

[WallaceWackedHer]

Personally I couldn’t get my head around the ignoring the parlour thing either.

Something I brought up a couple of years ago also, was the question of why Wallace did not, on his jaunt around Allerton, knock on the door of 25 Menlove Avenue? Just to eliminate that address from his dilemma. Someone posted that ,that would have been too far a field for him to have visited. But here now we have Ms. Lily Pinches , running the newsagents at 130 Menlove Avenue, advising Wallace to do just that, but I do believe he did not take her advice , odd! From 130 Menlove Avenue where I understand he left after 8 pm. he walks the length of Green Lane supposedly calls at the house where he took violin lessons a couple of years before , finding no-one home, continues on to meet up with a police officer who he discusses his problem with, before heading for the first of two trams on Allerton road. I can’t see him being seen with a women on Scotland road to be likely , before arriving back in Clubmore by 8 45 . (Remember it wasn’t the rush hour , so it’s likely he would have to wait a good few minutes for a tramcar to arrive)
In Allerton Most of the homes in that area of Liverpool were built during a period after the first war, they were in quite a pleasant ,leafy suburb type of region, as they still are today ,yet I seem to recall reading , one of Wallace’s chess mates warning him ‘off ‘ being in that area of the town at night, I thought that quite odd.
PS. Could the couple encountered on Scotland Road have been Amy with her husband Joseph?

The fact he didn't go to Menlove Avenue is in favour of his innocence, not guilt... Cui bono, who benefits? What does he gain from NOT going there and returning home instead? The only thing he gains by not checking that address, is that people can use it against him. There is absolutely no benefit for him.

Think of it from his perspective if he's an innocent man:

He went to the officer who told him to see a directory. He goes to the directory and sees a person of that name does not live in the area, nor is there a Menlove Gardens East.

Wolverton Street had been burgled only one month earlier and here is a man who is beginning to become just a touch anxious (upon seeing there is no person with such a name) that his home may have been burgled.

This is more consistent with his actions.

---

Btw about the bad place to be knocking about thing: Perhaps the area was nice, but a skeleton key housebreaking gang was operating in that area at the time. I think a group had just been arrested recently for breaking into one of the Menlove Gardens homes... So perhaps the area was nice, but the people who came there from elsewhere to do no good were not so nice.

Or a simple error.

[moste]

I’ve certainly never seen Edwin’s statement and I can’t recall mention of it in any of the books but you’ve read them more recently than I have.

What’s a bit strange is that if Carr saw them at 8.10 then Wallace (or both of them) had already taken one tram (at 8.00) So why do they appear to be lost? Wallace asked enough about directions on the way there so why didn’t he do the same on the return journey? Unless Amy was with him of course and he didn’t want to risk being identified as being with someone? Then again they could easily have sat apart to have given the appearance of not being together which would have allowed him to ask directions. More to the point wouldn’t he simply have taken the same trams on the route back?

I need a decent, wide map of the area. I’m really poor with directions and where places are in relation to other places and distances (not just in this case but in life in general. No one ever asks me to navigate!) So my question is was Scotland Road a plausible place for Wallace to have been 10 minutes after catching his first tram?

Google earth is my favourite .
The way I understand it. On Wallace’s outward journey his second tram drops him off near Menlove Gardens west. Menlove Avenue, being the main tram route. His return trip from what I have read is where he takes a first tram at the west end of Green Lane ,on Allerton Road north toward Liverpool, however It looks like both Allerton road and Menlove avenue converge on Penny Lane ,so his second tram coming home was probably same as the first tram coming out. Confused yet,Lol.
Since there are , strangely no witnesses for his return trip , we have no proof of anything.
To answer your question though ,No it’s highly implausible, in my opinion.

[moste]

It’s interesting for me to see the newspaper entry in the Liverpool Echo February 8th from the Prosecuting Solicitor at the Stipendiary Court. I raised a point around 2 years ago about how suspicious it was that Wallace ignored the Parlour to go upstairs. Leaving the Parlour until last. Here we have the Solicitor making the very same point.

Personally I couldn’t get my head around the ignoring the parlour thing either.

Something I brought up a couple of years ago also, was the question of why Wallace did not, on his jaunt around Allerton, knock on the door of 25 Menlove Avenue? Just to eliminate that address from his dilemma. Someone posted that ,that would have been too far a field for him to have visited. But here now we have Ms. Lily Pinches , running the newsagents at 130 Menlove Avenue, advising Wallace to do just that, but I do believe he did not take her advice , odd! From 130 Menlove Avenue where I understand he left after 8 pm. he walks the length of Green Lane supposedly calls at the house where he took violin lessons a couple of years before , finding no-one home, continues on to meet up with a police officer who he discusses his problem with, before heading for the first of two trams on Allerton road. I can’t see him being seen with a women on Scotland road to be likely , before arriving back in Clubmore by 8 45 . (Remember it wasn’t the rush hour , so it’s likely he would have to wait a good few minutes for a tramcar to arrive)
In Allerton Most of the homes in that area of Liverpool were built during a period after the first war, they were in quite a pleasant ,leafy suburb type of region, as they still are today ,yet I seem to recall reading , one of Wallace’s chess mates warning him ‘off ‘ being in that area of the town at night, I thought that quite odd.
PS. Could the couple encountered on Scotland Road have been Amy with her husband Joseph?

[WallaceWackedHer]

I’m positive that they were posted by Rod

You’ve done a really professional job of putting all this stuff together WWH but you’ve given the game away by revealing your name as RM Qualtrough

Good hunting on tuesday.

Thank you, I couldn't resist that username lol. I will come back Tuesday evening with many more goodies for you.

Personally I do not so much get the parlour thing because really it comes down to how panicked you think he was. In fact I think the exact opposite, if he'd gone into the room in the house that gets used the absolute least, I'd think it's a strong indication he knew she was in there (since it would be unnatural to not just assume your wife had gone to bed). Different if the room was actually used with any sort of frequency.

And with the Beattie address thing too... I mean what's the point of asking for the address? Clearly the single, sole benefit to doing so is to make it seem that you are a complete stranger. But Wallace severely narrowed the suspect pool and said Julia wouldn't let in anyone unknown to her etc. He said it must be someone known to them... Which would defeat the purpose of that question if he was the one who asked it.

To me, it seems more like, if this was some sort of dodgy scheme, the person was HOPING Beattie would give them the address, so when they rob the place/kill Julia the next day the police think it's someone who didn't even know where his house was until extracting the info.

Anyway, let me see what I can dig up on Tuesday...

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By the way Wallace case fans, I'm very bad at researching family connections, if anyone here is good at that sort of thing, please investigate very thoroughly whether there is ANY connection between Alfred Mather (the ex-Pru agent who despised Wallace and Julia), and Katie Mather (the woman who lived at 25 Menlove Gardens West).

Mather clearly has animosity for Wallace AND Julia, knows about Wallace's insurance business, actually worked at the Pru so might have heard of R J Qualtrough, knows Wallace's home address, and has been into Wallace's house several times. If it then additionally turned out he was a relative of the woman and her husband at 25 Menlove Gardens West, I think that would be a possible lead.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It’s interesting for me to see the newspaper entry in the Liverpool Echo February 8th from the Prosecuting Solicitor at the Stipendiary Court. I raised a point around 2 years ago about how suspicious it was that Wallace ignored the Parlour to go upstairs. Leaving the Parlour until last. Here we have the Solicitor making the very same point.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I've organized all the case files here:

https://www.williamherbertwallace.co...onal-archives/

For easy viewing. Also because Imgur images expire, and hosting it myself I can ensure they stay up and open to the public.

I have been given access to two more large files regarding this case.

I will be going down to view these this Tuesday. I will also view this first one again just to quadruple check I did not miss anything.

So stay tuned. More documents and files will be coming next week.



Credited those John Bull images as being uploaded by Rod, because I swore I saw his name on there first time I viewed them. If this is wrong let me know and I'll credit you.

I’m positive that they were posted by Rod

You’ve done a really professional job of putting all this stuff together WWH but you’ve given the game away by revealing your name as RM Qualtrough

Good hunting on tuesday.

[WallaceWackedHer]

I've organized all the case files here:

https://www.williamherbertwallace.co...onal-archives/

For easy viewing. Also because Imgur images expire, and hosting it myself I can ensure they stay up and open to the public.

I have been given access to two more large files regarding this case.

I will be going down to view these this Tuesday. I will also view this first one again just to quadruple check I did not miss anything.

So stay tuned. More documents and files will be coming next week.

...

Credited those John Bull images as being uploaded by Rod, because I swore I saw his name on there first time I viewed them. If this is wrong let me know and I'll credit you.

[WallaceWackedHer]

On Google Maps it gives Menlove Gardens to Scotland Road at about 20 minutes. I'm really not good at working out speeds and times that's more Antony's thing.

Essentially the sighting being at 8.10 seems a tad fast. 8.20 to 8.30 would seem more accurate.

[WallaceWackedHer]

Thought I should add this, the route Wallace claimed he took home on the night of the murder:

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You will see Scotland Road circled in red there.

Basically, to go to Scotland Road and then to Belmont Road where he gets off, it's about an additional 2 to 3 miles. The journey time (based on the ~2 mile journey from Smithdown Road (where he got on the 7.06 tram, right?) and Menlove Gardens West (where he got off at 7.20 I believe), it'd be about 15 extra minutes of journey time.

That's a MEGA rough estimate of course since Wallace changed trams on that journey (Smithdown to Penny Lane, Penny Lane to Menlove Gardens West)...

But considering he left his total journey from his back door to Menlove Gardens West was about 30 to 35 minutes, you might expect around 45 to 50 minutes back if he had taken a detour around Scotland Road.

With him getting a tram at 8 PM as claimed, this would mean he would arrive at his back door at around 8.45 to 8.50 PM if he had taken the detour?

Very rough estimations, not to be taken as anything concrete, more theorizing... Especially since Robert Carr did not specify precisely where on Scotland Road he believes he saw Wallace and Amy. Further, that's assuming he was able to specify the time down to the very minute. There may be some margin of error.

But it seems if Wallace had gone there, he would have arrived at Scotland Road at roughly 8.30 not 8.10.

[WallaceWackedHer]

By the way, I have made a grave error in regards to Parry coming from Park/Lark Lane. Re-reading these statements, what it says is that Parry went to call at one of these places after he had been to Lily's front door for the first time (before then returning later in the evening), rather than saying he had just come from there when he first got to Lily's door at 7.XX pm.

Of course, Parry very well may have been driving up Breck Road to Lily's in any case (since we have never been told where exactly he was before arriving at Lily's), but with Lark/Park Lane I thought I could place him there with certainty.

That is a laughable memory lapse from myself. I can't believe I would make such an error.