The Murder of Julia Wallace (1931) - Full DPP case files

[Ven]

oh , how i wish i could re-enact a video of this!

[Ven]

The first strike is done with the mackintosh held up as a shield, so the bar is not soaked

[WallaceWackedHer]

So therefore, later hits are done with mackintosh over her, and then mackintosh pushed underneath her

Right, okay so the first strike is done without covering, then the bar would be soaked, and the swinging of the bar would place the splatter as it was swung, rather than subsequent splatter being from Julia.

That makes a lot of sense. I can see that.

But the burning seems to have preceded that, right? Once it's over her head then I'm not sure how it would come to be set on fire?

I definitely don't think the jacket is shoved beneath her, simply because it is so obvious and easy (when we know Julia's body was moved) that the jacket goes down first, is stomped out, and Julia's body winds up on top of it at some point while she is being moved.

I do wonder if maybe the forensics are just embarassingly wrong and the spray on the wall to the left of the fireplace is from the weapon rather than from Julia's head. If that's the case it might completely change the facts of where she was when first hit. Not sure!!!!!

[Ven]

So therefore, later hits are done with mackintosh over her, and then mackintosh pushed underneath her

[Ven]

If you're swinging a blood laden pipe then there will be blood splats on the wall opposite, the ceiling and the opposite wall

[WallaceWackedHer]

Hey WWH, i looked at the photos that have dots on the wall AND there are no dots on the ceiling

I can assure you there's spray on the ceiling, if it's not visible in my photos I've obviously not done it justice with my camera. The dots appear around the fixture on the ceiling, there's very few but they are there.

Handling the photo in person in the magazine it's WAY more apparent. Same with fine details, for example the violin case is far more detailed and obvious when the image is viewed in person.

[WallaceWackedHer]

Two questions...

Why would Julia put a coat around her shoulders to answer the door then light a fire in the Parlour and yet she didn’t bother to do the same when she’d actually gone outside and walked to the gate and back to see William off?

Why would Julia have put on William’s mackintosh and not her own coat which would have been hanging in the same place? Remember, she didn’t own a mackintosh so she couldn’t have picked it up by mistake. Also, women’s coats were often made of thicker material than a mackintosh so why wouldn’t Julia have selected a warmer coat?

It's a mystery to me. I'm not much use on the topic of the jacket, it's complex.

All I would really be willing to say is that I feel confident the jacket was likely not placed beneath Julia on purpose.

And to me it seems more like it wasn't worn, since the burning I think fits more naturally as accidental (and being one accident rather than two). So then it's more like Julia was either wearing it, which is the immediate thought Mrs. Johnston had, one of the only people to have seen the original positioning of the jacket and body... Or that it's being held up as a shield, it must be something along those lines I think?

I'm sure others can reach a far better conclusion on the specifics than me.

I do think in a hurry to answer the door it's natural to grab the first thing to hand, I do it all the time when Royal Mail arrives and I'm still not dressed... So I can see it as a realistic suggestion, especially if the coat rack is very crowded. Sadly there's no photo in the hallway... She had a "bit of material" round her neck when she greeted the baker's boy (it was the baker's boy, right?), something like a scarf although he wasn't sure that's what it was... I don't think she has a scarf etc. in the crime scene photos, so it is possible she had grabbed something else? What say you?

[WallaceWackedHer]

Except that I think the evidence is clear that the jacket was not purposefully placed beneath Julia - rather, Julia whose body we know for a fact was moved (quite substantially by the way!!!!) ended up on top of the mackintosh naturally.

Wow... What evidence shows that it was not purposefully placed beneath Julia, and how did she then end up on it naturally... there is no discussion, that I've, read,

Fragments of mackintosh suggesting - according to the crap forensic experts - that it was stamped out on the rug.

Julia's body was most definitely moved.

It follows that the jacket was chucked down and stamped out, and then since we know for a fact Julia's body was moved quite a bit, then the jacket is already down and stamped out when this moving of the body is being done... So it's very apparent that in probability the placement is a natural one via the circumstances, rather than contrived.

Placing it beneath her is exposing the killer to more blood, as she's bleeding profusely at this point, and I can't really see that it serves much purpose. Obviously the killer couldn't believe if he shoved it underneath her it wouldn't be found. The only conceivable benefit really, is that it might help to cover forensic evidence when blood from Julia's wounds leaks all over it.

[Ven]

Hey WWH, i looked at the photos that have dots on the wall AND there are no dots on the ceiling

[WallaceWackedHer]

Btw one member of the mentioned gang, Paine, was armed with a GUN during one of the break ins in Southport.

It seems these gangs of burglars went into homes highly prepared. Rubber shoes, and armed with weapons.

I've felt that perhaps in ANY solution even if William wacked her, the weapon wouldn't be removed. In a premeditated attack, preventing the weapon (if its a blunt instrument) from being covered in blood is so utterly trivial. And conversely it looks like individuals who were breaking into homes were doing so armed which is what I'd naturally expect.

Having to dispose of a weapon is really unnecessary if it's planned so meticulously to be a murder. Disposal is suggestive that the weapon would be incriminating enough to make the risk of carrying it off worthwhile... Which I think suggests a fear of fingerprints, and therefore no gloves on the killer if something really was removed from the home... Wiping off an iron bar or wrapping it in newspaper would be so, so simple.

Maybe the missing items are therefore red herrings. I recall Wallace saying a wood chopper had been missing for 12 months, then it being found in a cupboard beneath the stairs. So perhaps the home is simply a bit messy and items only appear to be lost yet are actually somewhere in the house?

[Herlock Sholmes]

. But it looks to me like Julia admitted someone willingly, and it does look like she had the jacket round her shoulders.

Two questions...

Why would Julia put a coat around her shoulders to answer the door then light a fire in the Parlour and yet she didn’t bother to do the same when she’d actually gone outside and walked to the gate and back to see William off?

Why would Julia have put on William’s mackintosh and not her own coat which would have been hanging in the same place? Remember, she didn’t own a mackintosh so she couldn’t have picked it up by mistake. Also, women’s coats were often made of thicker material than a mackintosh so why wouldn’t Julia have selected a warmer coat?

[Ven]

Except that I think the evidence is clear that the jacket was not purposefully placed beneath Julia - rather, Julia whose body we know for a fact was moved (quite substantially by the way!!!!) ended up on top of the mackintosh naturally.

Wow... What evidence shows that it was not purposefully placed beneath Julia, and how did she then end up on it naturally... there is no discussion, that I've, read,

[Herlock Sholmes]

It is important to note - and this is a very rarely discussed tidbit- but Wallace said when he went to chess Julia would sometimes play piano by herself to pass time. So there is a possibility of her entering the parlour of her own accord, not only for a visitor.

Ive suggested this possibility in the past but I never got around to checking for confirmation.

[WallaceWackedHer]

Higher definition photos of the crime scene do show blood spray,

Please repost them

Sure, scroll down here and enlarge the photos of the parlour:

https://www.williamherbertwallace.com/gallery/crime-scene-photos/

I did a close up because even my own camera was giving me difficulties as you will see.

It looks like, according to what we must remember is a terrible forensic investigation, the first strike was to the front and above Julia's ear (left side, easy to see on morgue photos), and her head was not covered since spray has gone up the walls and reached the ceiling.

But like I said the forensic team are the ones saying this and we have to consider if we really trust them... It's hard to envision how a strike to the left of Julia's head (as in HER left) would send her falling to the right into the fireplace.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the forensics are completely botched and its giving us an inaccurate idea of which strike hit first and how Julia was positioned when it happened.

[WallaceWackedHer]

Her skirt goes in the fireplace but there's no scorching on her upper body, yet the jacket is heavily burned.

Which would imply that she did not have it on her shoulders but was used as a shield and fell with her.

It most likely falls with her if it's attached to her body in some way - e.g. if she was wearing it. It could also be the case that it gets tangled in her body after the first strike.

Using it as a shield fits better than the killer actually wearing it (which is what the prosecution pushed)... I don't like to dive into this specific thing too deep because it is more a matter for a forensic team... I really wouldn't like to pose any definite opinion on the matter. Except that I think the evidence is clear that the jacket was not purposefully placed beneath Julia - rather, Julia whose body we know for a fact was moved (quite substantially by the way!!!!) ended up on top of the mackintosh naturally.