The Murder of Julia Wallace (1931) - Full DPP case files

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’m no longer interested in taking part in any further discussion on the Wallace case. Your piece is presented as it is and yet mine is presented with an unfairly critical running commentary all the way through it and so anyone reading this will automatically form an impression that I’m just about wrong or biased on so many points. If I had a website I would simply have presented yours as it stood just as Antony has done and as anyone else would have done.

So I’ve twice let go the fact that you’ve called me dishonest and now you’ve done this.

Im done.

[WallaceWackedHer]

Cheers. Didn’t Antony say that he wanted to put your scenario onto his website? Are you writing an abridged version in which he’ll put a link to the full version as a pdf?

He wanted me to write a storytelling type version, I'm not quite so good at that, haven't started on it yet.

I also said to him I wanted to get some more facts and evidence behind the idea first as well, to be able to illustrate the thing start to finish.

Right now I have a shell with logical deductions, but I need to fully flesh the thing out. And it still could turn out I'm wrong... So I really want to have more evidence and facts etc before going fully in on something.

The solution on my site ironically I wrote as I went along, I'd floated the idea before but it wasn't my "solution", I was more on the prank train, just turned out that way as I wrote it things started to make sense.

Would you mind if I added in commentary on your article? I'll make it toggle-able (off by default, but people can click a link to show my thoughts and it'll show my responses to each point).

I think the robbery staging would have been done before the killing as well as the cabinet door being off. Hell, the door might have been off for days for all we know. I don't think anybody trying to do things as fast as possible would wait until AFTER he's killed his wife to stage the robbery. It's unnecessary time wasting for anyone working against a clock.

And that "cupboard door" is very misleading, because I've often seen it referred to as a "lid", and implications it's a box rather than a cabinet.

Evidently people back then were not fussy about nailing the particulars.

... Oh also I noticed you saying the officer said Wallace seemed nervous. I remember reading that before as well, is that from a book? I'm not sure if it's a statement of fact though. Again with this case, it seems the people who wrote about it were not fussed about accuracy.

I'll have to check the trial now since I think he would have mentioned this (the officer) when being questioned in court, if Wallace had seemed jittery.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Cool, I hadn't seen the full PDF before, it has much more important info than the cut down version on the web page.

I like the suggestion of the fire being set up for the piano before the milk boy had come.

Cheers. Didn’t Antony say that he wanted to put your scenario onto his website? Are you writing an abridged version in which he’ll put a link to the full version as a pdf?

[WallaceWackedHer]

No problem at all WWH.

Cool, I hadn't seen the full PDF before, it has much more important info than the cut down version on the web page.

I like the suggestion of the fire being set up for the piano before the milk boy had come.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Btw would you mind if I used your theory from Antony's site and added it to my own? With credit. I can use your real name, initials, username whatever you prefer.

No problem at all WWH.

[moste]

Btw would you mind if I used your theory from Antony's site and added it to my own? With credit. I can use your real name, initials, username whatever you prefer.

Hey wwh. Have you noticed if you touch on a posters name, you can send a private message? Just trying to be helpful.

[moste]

He spent 6 days a week meeting hundreds of people. He had previous lectured at the Liverpool Technical College, he had chess club, a small circle of friends, visits to Amy and Calderstones Park. Granted he wasn’t Ozzy Osbourne.but reclusive is a bit much. I don’t think that WWH actually means that he/they hardly went out. I’d say that it would be more accurate to say that they simply had a very small circle of friends and that they were both quiet and reserved.

Correct ,If a salesman was a reclusive he couldn’t be a salesman.

[WallaceWackedHer]

He spent 6 days a week meeting hundreds of people. He had previous lectured at the Liverpool Technical College, he had chess club, a small circle of friends, visits to Amy and Calderstones Park. Granted he wasn’t Ozzy Osbourne.but reclusive is a bit much. I don’t think that WWH actually means that he/they hardly went out. I’d say that it would be more accurate to say that they simply had a very small circle of friends and that they were both quiet and reserved.

Btw would you mind if I used your theory from Antony's site and added it to my own? With credit. I can use your real name, initials, username whatever you prefer.

[WallaceWackedHer]

An issue for the Housebreaker argument is of course that if someone had broken in, expecting the house to have been empty, they would hardly have been likely to have put the cash box back on the shelf. And as with any theory involving robbery we have to ask why no search was made? I’ll paraphrase the old saying “if it doesn’t walk like a robbery and it doesn’t look like a robbery then it probably isn’t a robbery.”

They didn't expect it to be empty IMO. Someone well acquainted with the Wallaces (such as Parry) suggested robbing the Prudential money. He was deemed a "family friend" by Wallace, and in John Bull Wallace (without giving Parry's name) says he trusted him.

You can't rob the Wallace house if it's unoccupied or there won't be any money in there, and that insurance money is what they're after.

They knew Julia was in there hence someone kept her occupied in the front room so the living kitchen where the cash box was kept was empty and thus the person who entered the back could rob it and leave.

Not much was taken because Julia's death halted the robbery. I actually think they probably wouldn't have taken things out of the house with them necessarily- and if they did they'd have dropped the items down grids within minutes.

I can show you this exact gang incinerated money when they thought they might get caught (weird because money isn't identifiable? Lol. But they did this and I can prove it). Maybe they burned it in the house. Maybe some stuff they were going to take was put back somewhere in the house or flushed or lord knows what.

Coins were on the floor, presumably from the cash box.

Once Julia is dead they don't care about robbing the place, they care about getting away with murder - and IMO there's three people in the house. I wrote two because it's easier to accept and the three is a pure hunch. It doesn't help explain anything better I just think it's the case LOL. Prior robberies with this gang had them break into properties very often in groups of three.


Anne Parsons did see TWO men running very fast, which implies two. But Johnstons statement about the thuds and Wallace's suspicion someone was in the home suggest maybe those two had ran away (the gang often used "lookouts", maybe it was the lookouts), and others had remained in the house ensuring they have left nothing incriminating, possibly disposing of bank notes etc.

Wallace thought there were four notes in the upstairs pot. There were 5, one stained with blood. Now the generally accepted idea is an officer placed the blood smear on the note there and there's good reason to believe this - as the officers on the scene never noticed that smear just the police analyst after the fact...

However what if someone was up there when Wallace knockes and hastily shoved a bill in there?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Wallace was reclusive? Was he?

He spent 6 days a week meeting hundreds of people. He had previous lectured at the Liverpool Technical College, he had chess club, a small circle of friends, visits to Amy and Calderstones Park. Granted he wasn’t Ozzy Osbourne.but reclusive is a bit much. I don’t think that WWH actually means that he/they hardly went out. I’d say that it would be more accurate to say that they simply had a very small circle of friends and that they were both quiet and reserved.

[WallaceWackedHer]

Wallace was reclusive? Was he?

As much as Julia, yes. They were described as extremely reserved. In an old book, it mentions Wallace and Julia went to a Prudential work party and the two were very introverted and reserved, didn't speak to anybody.

Wallace has his chess club, occasional chemistry lectures... That's about it for his social life unless violin lessons are social events.

The two did have SOME friends but yeah.

[Herlock Sholmes]

An issue for the Housebreaker argument is of course that if someone had broken in, expecting the house to have been empty, they would hardly have been likely to have put the cash box back on the shelf. And as with any theory involving robbery we have to ask why no search was made? I’ll paraphrase the old saying “if it doesn’t walk like a robbery and it doesn’t look like a robbery then it probably isn’t a robbery.”

[moste]

Not at #19. And I think not at 38 MGS but I'm not sure.

Their intention is not to go into homes and murder people. Of course if this is a burglary it's as termed a "robbery gone wrong". They did bring weapons sometimes - I'm mostly going in on one particular gang based on a few facts that match up well with them having involvement in this. Then again, some robberies these people committed did involve beating elderly women to near-death as I said.

It's also unusual in this crime in the sense that a person was still in the house.

But what we are told of the Wallaces is that if both went out, AKA there were no occupants, EVERY PENNY in the home would be taken with them.

INCLUDING the insurance money, which is evidently what was targeted. So you could not rob that money if nobody was home. Beyond that:

The two were reclusive in any case.

And due to the collection schedule etc. there's a very specific ideal time to strike.

The setup and outcome of this crime is different from others. It doesn't mean anything. I can show many burglaries from the era that did go wrong or end in murder even though the same person had burgled before and not killed anybody.

It's not really noteworthy. It might be an unusual robbery, but say it's a murder, how many murders do you know where the guy has telephoned himself with a fake address and all the other weird details? No matter how you spin it, this is far from a usual case.

Figuring out exactly how the murder played out and, also, in MY bizarre opinion wtf happened to the cat, are important things to figure out.

Wallace was reclusive? Was he?

[WallaceWackedHer]

Quote....So let's say 38 Menlove Gardens South was robbed BECAUSE Dan Roberts suggested it, and 19 Wolverton Street robbed BECAUSE Johnston suggested it.

Was anyone killed or otherwise attacked during these two break-ins do you know?

Not at #19. And I think not at 38 MGS but I'm not sure.

Their intention is not to go into homes and murder people. Of course if this is a burglary it's as termed a "robbery gone wrong". They did bring weapons sometimes - I'm mostly going in on one particular gang based on a few facts that match up well with them having involvement in this. Then again, some robberies these people committed did involve beating elderly women to near-death as I said.

It's also unusual in this crime in the sense that a person was still in the house.

But what we are told of the Wallaces is that if both went out, AKA there were no occupants, EVERY PENNY in the home would be taken with them.

INCLUDING the insurance money, which is evidently what was targeted. So you could not rob that money if nobody was home. Beyond that:

The two were reclusive in any case.

And due to the collection schedule etc. there's a very specific ideal time to strike.

The setup and outcome of this crime is different from others. It doesn't mean anything. I can show many burglaries from the era that did go wrong or end in murder even though the same person had burgled before and not killed anybody.

It's not really noteworthy. It might be an unusual robbery, but say it's a murder, how many murders do you know where the guy has telephoned himself with a fake address and all the other weird details? No matter how you spin it, this is far from a usual case.

Figuring out exactly how the murder played out and, also, in MY bizarre opinion wtf happened to the cat, are important things to figure out.

[moste]

Quote....So let's say 38 Menlove Gardens South was robbed BECAUSE Dan Roberts suggested it, and 19 Wolverton Street robbed BECAUSE Johnston suggested it.

Was anyone killed or otherwise attacked during these two break-ins do you know?