The Loch Ness Monster

[martin wilson]

Scientists love those big extinction events,apart from the rather obvious fact that something must have survived because here we are.
Evolution only works for scientists when they can show a progression in phenotypes, despite the fact that there are plenty of species around that survive by being omniverous and generally adaptable, they always insist that the type of organisms studied by cryptozoologists belong to specialised species that 'would not have survived'.
Predation by man is thought to be responsible for the extinction of numerous species, my own opinion is that they hunted until the benefits became no longer viable, leaving a small population of a species that may or may not have survived, there are plenty of examples of something thought extinct reappearing.
For example the Thylacine,thought hunted to extinction,yet there are witness reports and even photographic evidence I believe that suggest it may have survived.
It seems to very much of a case of 'we authoritively state that species x is definitely extinct,well,apart from those over there obviously'.
All the best.

[RivkahChaya]

Ooooh, the so ugly it's cute coelacanth. ... It was known only from fossils and was universally known to have gone extinct along with the dinosaurs. Then suddenly, in 1938 one turned up alive in fishermens' nets off of South Africa. Today it's acknowledged to be a still thriving species ....

That's not quite right. The coelacanth is an order, not a species. It's an order which had traits that were considered "transitional" between fish and land animals, and back when people thought evolution progressed at a steady pace toward something, it was assumed that "transitional" traits disappeared once a fully evolved form developed, in this case, land animals.

We know now that evolution doesn't work that way, and any species that exists is fully realized for its own environment, and not in any kind of developmental process. Evolution does proceed with any kind of design in mind, and "transitional species" is essentially a myth.

Aside from that, though, the modern coelacanths are not identical to any of the fossil species from 360 million years ago. They just aren't different enough to be a new order, and while they are not representative of any species thought to be extinct, they have traits thought to be extinct.

There are other very old orders that have living species still represented. There are some orders of reptiles that are 220 million years old, and plenty of plants and invertebrates that leave coelacanth in the dust (the fossil record is sketchier on invertebrates, though, for obvious reasons), but coelacanths do represent just about the oldest order of the phylum vertebrates.

[RivkahChaya]

I haven't got my husband to upload them, or I'd post them, but as a joke, we took some pictures of our dog, swimming, next to a toy boat, and were going to send them to our friends as "new pictures of the Loch Ness monster."

When we saw them, we were surprised at how "good," some of them looked. Aside from the fact that we used a plastic Thomas the Tank Engine Bulstrode, there's one picture where she's looking away from the camera, and partly shaded, with her ears back (she has Lab-type floppy ears), and she has a very Nessie-like head breaking the surface of the water, with her back looking like a hump behind her, and then tail poking up just a little, with a wake. If I Photoshopped it so that it had the real Loch Ness banks in the background, and changed the boat to a real, scaled-down boat, I'd have the tabloids banging on my door.

[Beowulf]

I used to believe in the Loch Ness monster, but I read several things that seem to make it's existence unlikely.

Not enough food in the lake for a creature of that size.

Reptiles do not generate their internal body heat, which is why they live in warmer climates, which rules out plesiosaurs.

The eye-witness accounts of the Loch Ness monster are nothing like a plesiosaur:

There are many different descriptions of the Loch Ness monster, and not all of them agree with each other. Typical descriptions talk of a series of undulating humps. This would imply that the observers are looking at a mammal - reptiles can only move their bodies from side to side. The bodies of plesiosaurs were rigid, and could certainly not undulate either up and down or from side to side.

However, I would like to see if there is anything really to all these stories. One of the criticisms is that the stories originated in the 1930's so Loch Ness has in fact NOT a long sea serpent tradition.

Yet someone once told me that Mary Queen of Scots when imprisoned on the Loch wrote in her diary she saw a strange animal in the Loch. I haven't read her diary but I wonder if anyone can verify that story?

[jason_c]

I used to believe in the Loch Ness monster, but I read several things that seem to make it's existence unlikely.

Not enough food in the lake for a creature of that size.

Reptiles do not generate their internal body heat, which is why they live in warmer climates, which rules out plesiosaurs.

The eye-witness accounts of the Loch Ness monster are nothing like a plesiosaur:

There are many different descriptions of the Loch Ness monster, and not all of them agree with each other. Typical descriptions talk of a series of undulating humps. This would imply that the observers are looking at a mammal - reptiles can only move their bodies from side to side. The bodies of plesiosaurs were rigid, and could certainly not undulate either up and down or from side to side.

However, I would like to see if there is anything really to all these stories. One of the criticisms is that the stories originated in the 1930's so Loch Ness has in fact NOT a long sea serpent tradition.

Yet someone once told me that Mary Queen of Scots when imprisoned on the Loch wrote in her diary she saw a strange animal in the Loch. I haven't read her diary but I wonder if anyone can verify that story?

I haven't heard of Mary Queen of Scots account, but I very much doubt it's true. The first supposed sighting was by St Columba in the 6th century. I have doubts about a monster being seen by two such famous historical figures.

Im afraid to say im a non-believer. When I say non-believer im being polite. There is more chance of Catherine Eddowes having been murdered by Martians than a Loch Ness Monster existing.

Plus, too many sightings have proven to be a hoax.

[martin wilson]

I have not read the 'Martians kill Eddowes' theory, if there is not one then there should be.
I dont believe any serious researcher into Nessie thinks she is a plesiosaur, but from the evidence there does seem to be something in there, a sturgeon perhaps as Kensei mentioned,some sort of eel, who knows? it's a fascinating subject.
Obviously,not every sighting should be taken seriously,the real problem for paranormal researchers is that without contact with the primary source the 'evidence' is of the believe it or not nature.
I was on a forum a few years back with a senior member of a local paranormal society and he told me there was one guy known as 'the charmer' who would sit down with people who had seen a ghost for example and gently discover if they had any prexisting belief, or if they were of the fantasy prone type,it's a vital and perhaps not widely known aspect of paranormal investigation, certainly I have read plenty of Ufo books where the writers have strongly suggested a particular witness is unreliable for any number of reasons.
As always,its a process that can eliminate some witnesses but conversely can leave the researcher convinced of the witnesses sincerity,which is consistent across the whole range of paranormal experience,not every witness can be discounted,and there is always a hard kernel of experiences that are genuinely inexplicable.
All the best.

[kensei]

I used to believe in the Loch Ness monster, but I read several things that seem to make it's existence unlikely.

Not enough food in the lake for a creature of that size.

Reptiles do not generate their internal body heat, which is why they live in warmer climates, which rules out plesiosaurs.

The eye-witness accounts of the Loch Ness monster are nothing like a plesiosaur:

There are many different descriptions of the Loch Ness monster, and not all of them agree with each other. Typical descriptions talk of a series of undulating humps. This would imply that the observers are looking at a mammal - reptiles can only move their bodies from side to side. The bodies of plesiosaurs were rigid, and could certainly not undulate either up and down or from side to side.

However, I would like to see if there is anything really to all these stories. One of the criticisms is that the stories originated in the 1930's so Loch Ness has in fact NOT a long sea serpent tradition.

Yet someone once told me that Mary Queen of Scots when imprisoned on the Loch wrote in her diary she saw a strange animal in the Loch. I haven't read her diary but I wonder if anyone can verify that story?

I would refute the statement that eyewitness descriptions of Nessie are nothing like a plesiosaur. Some of them have been exactly like one, including both land and water sightings. However I agree completely that witnesses have described the creature in many different ways that don't jibe with each other at all. I'd address the statement about not enough food in the loch for a large animal by saying that assumes we know what kind of food it would eat, and that there are abundant fish populations there, but with what I am about to say I don't know if that argument is even necessary.

I don't think Nessie is a plesiosaur, despite sometimes looking like one. I don't know if it would be most similar to a reptile or to a mammal or an amphibian or what. As I stated at the end of my first post, I don't think it's even a natural animal. I know many don't believe in truly paranormal or supernatural things but I feel that just might be what Nessie is, a creature or group of creatures that are stuck somehow in Loch Ness but are not always in physical form. In pagan magic they would be called water elementals, and may have shown up in folklore with the titles of water kelpies or even dragons. It doesn't mean they're not real. When they are in physical form they show up on film and on sonar and if one surfaced underneath your boat it would sink you. But then they can fade out and be uncatchable, and the next time they appear they might look completely different. What do they eat? They might not even need food.

(In spite of reports such as one where salmon were seen leaping just before Nessie surfaced as if it was chasing them, and another where a long serpentine head and neck was seen trying to snatch a low-flying bird. Who knows? I don't have references for those, they are just stories I remember reading somewhere.)

I'm not saying it's what I firmly believe, only that I believe it's very possible. I know a lot of people don't, and that's ok too.

[kensei]

I have not read the 'Martians kill Eddowes' theory, if there is not one then there should be.
I dont believe any serious researcher into Nessie thinks she is a plesiosaur, but from the evidence there does seem to be something in there, a sturgeon perhaps as Kensei mentioned,some sort of eel, who knows? it's a fascinating subject.
Obviously,not every sighting should be taken seriously,the real problem for paranormal researchers is that without contact with the primary source the 'evidence' is of the believe it or not nature.
I was on a forum a few years back with a senior member of a local paranormal society and he told me there was one guy known as 'the charmer' who would sit down with people who had seen a ghost for example and gently discover if they had any prexisting belief, or if they were of the fantasy prone type,it's a vital and perhaps not widely known aspect of paranormal investigation, certainly I have read plenty of Ufo books where the writers have strongly suggested a particular witness is unreliable for any number of reasons.
As always,its a process that can eliminate some witnesses but conversely can leave the researcher convinced of the witnesses sincerity,which is consistent across the whole range of paranormal experience,not every witness can be discounted,and there is always a hard kernel of experiences that are genuinely inexplicable.
All the best.

I know suggestibility is a powerful thing, and that witnesses to various phenomena can interpret what they see based on their preconceived beliefs. I also believe there are plenty of fantasy prone people out there. But in my own experience, I visited Loch Ness with the sole intent of looking for Nessie and had a firm preconceived belief in it. With my proclaimed belief in such things as the paranormal (as demonstrated in my previous post) I'm sure there are many who would call me fantasy prone. Yet what did I see at the loch? A lot of lovely scenery, and a lot of sheep, and that's about it. So I guess even strong suggestibility does not always have the effect of making people see things that are not there.

[Abby Normal]

Just for fun here, I don't think I've ever seen a thread under "Other Mysteries" about that greatest of all UK mysteries, the Loch Ness Monster. I visited Loch Ness while on vacation in England and Scotland in 2008 and stayed a night in the village of Drumnadrochit. As a lifelong afficianado of cryptozoology it was a real high point for me. For the record, I did not see Nessie, but nor did I really expect to. I visited the two exhibition centers in the town, and was hoping to meet with famous Nessie hunter Adrian Shine who runs the biggest one, but he was out of town at the time. I went on one of the cruises that are offered on the lake and scanned the water intently with binoculars, noting how even far from shore the air smelled not fishy or seaweedy but like the childrens' barnyard I recalled from county fairs in my youth, due to the large number of sheep pastures that surround the lake. The tour guide turned out to be a non-believer in Nessie, surprisingly, and spent the whole time talking about the non-Nessie related history of the area which involved the Jacobites, William Wallace, etc. It seemed to put the theory that Nessie is a creation of the locals in order to draw tourists in to rest. Yes, there are gift shops that sells Nessie trinkets, but not nearly as much as you would expect for such a well known attraction. I had to walk to the famous Urquhart Castle (having seen it earlier from the boat), a 40-minute walk from the village, and got there 20 minutes after it had closed for the day, but I still got to see it and to gaze out at Urquhart Bay, the most popular spot for Nessie sightings. There were some interesting "trails" that I caught on video through the algae on the surface, but admittedly they were probably made by boats. I wanted to get down to the shoreline, but hesitated at walking across private land. Then some teenagers came along and crawled over the fence I'd been contemplating climbing over myself, asked me if I had a light for their cigarettes, and I asked them if it was ok to cross this land. "Oh yeah, it's all ok," they said. So I made my way down through a sheep pasture, and enjoyed a brief stay at the waterline of Loch Ness and collected a stone and a bottle of water as souvenirs. As I was leaving I saw those kids wading and splashing around in the shallows. If there was a monster around, neither the sheep nor the kids seemed worried. That was basically my Loch Ness experience.

I didn't see Nessie, but I do believe SOMETHING is there. There have just been too many sightings over the years for there to be nothing to it. Theories range from something as amazing as surviving plesiosaurs to merely a population of slightly oversized sturgeon (which Adrian Shine seems to favor). Some of the skeptics' explanations fall laughably short. There was a famous sighting by a couple in a car who saw a huge animal crossing a road before plunging into the loch. I have a book in which the author says they probably saw an otter and exaggerated its size. My reaction- did you not hear them say that the animal they saw spanned the entire road?!!! An otter that big would be just as amazing as a living dinosaur! Then there is the famous 1934 "Surgeon's photograph," which in the early 90s was supposedly revealed as a hoax involving a model attached to a toy submarine, which made millions of suggestible newspaper readers make the huge leap in logic of saying ok then, if that one photo is a fake then there is no Nessie. You hear very little about the holes in the story, about how the material the model was supposedly made of hadn't been invented yet in 1934 and how toy catalogs of the day feature no toy submarine that would have done the job, etc. There's evidence that that hoax claim was itself a hoax. That doesn't automatically make the Surgeon's Photo a shot of a living dinosaur, it just leaves it in the realm of speculation.

While sitting on the shore of Loch Ness and seeing what it was really like, I had to admit to myself- you know all those people who say that if huge creatures lived in this lake they'd be seen way more often? Well-- those people are right. It's not a bunch of plesiosaurs. Can't be. They would indeed be seen all the time and their existence would not be in doubt. But there IS something, there has to be. There are just too many sightings- which yes, have diminished in recent years, but they do still occur. So what about one of the more whymsical theories, that Nessie is something paranormal? Something that is not in solid physical form all the time. Something that shows up on film and on sonar sometimes, but is at other times intangible. Something that in days of yore in old Scotland would have been referred to as a water kelpie or even as a dragon. Scientists shun theories like that, but no more than they shun theories about other subjects featured on this "Other Mysteries" page such as ghosts and UFOs.

My mom saw Chessie. The Chesapeake bay sea monster.

[Beowulf]

My mom saw Chessie. The Chesapeake bay sea monster.

I never even heard of Chessie. That's pretty interesting.

Not to say I do not believe Nessie, or any other sea monster/serpent couldn't exist.

I did read a book a few years back, very seriously written, about the Cape Ann sea serpent. It lists sightings from captains of ships and even the entire town, plus the entire town of Gloucester in Massachusetts. Going back to the 1600s. I'm sure it wasn't fictional. There really are creatures out there we have no idea of.

This books name, in case any are further interested is:

The Great New England Sea Serpent: An Account of Unknown Creatures Sighted by Many Respectable Persons Between 1638 and the Present Day by
J. P. O'Neill

[Abby Normal]

I never even heard of Chessie. That's pretty interesting.

Not to say I do not believe Nessie, or any other sea monster/serpent couldn't exist.

I did read a book a few years back, very seriously written, about the Cape Ann sea serpent. It lists sightings from captains of ships and even the entire town, plus the entire town of Gloucester in Massachusetts. Going back to the 1600s. I'm sure it wasn't fictional. There really are creatures out there we have no idea of.

This books name, in case any are further interested is:

The Great New England Sea Serpent: An Account of Unknown Creatures Sighted by Many Respectable Persons Between 1638 and the Present Day by
J. P. O'Neill

Hi Beowulf
There was a slew of sightings in the early 80's when my mom saw it.

She was on our neighborhood dock ,summer time, late afternoon with her friend and there were also people(2 couples) who were getting off their salboat. something surfaced and started swimmimng toward them and the dock. once it got a few feet from them it disapeared under the water then surfaced again and started swimming away in another direction and eventually disapeared back under the water.

She said it was snake or eel like. Very large-30 to 40 feet long. Head was as large as a horses head and shaped like a football. Body was thick around as a telephone pole. Color was dark brownish/gray. Swam like a snake on the surface of the water (Side to side/horizontally). But she said at some points it also swam vertically-like up and down, in and out of the water. (Picture a sideways wavelength).

When it was gone they said "did you see that?" and also other conversation about it with the other people. They all saw it, though one of the men said something to the affect-"I'll never admit it".

When i got home everyone in my family was talking about it. Cheasapeake Magazine came out and interviewed my mom and her friend. Around the same time a famouse video was taken of it off of Kent Island. The video was examined by scientists from the Smithsonian I beleive and they determined that it was not a hoax and that it was a living organism ,swimming on its own, approx 30 feet long (or something like that).

I totally beleive my Mom. I think it was maybe a large anaconda that somehow got in the bay. If not that then who knows?

Nessie I beleive is possible but lesslikely as it is in a much smaller landlocked body of water and the temps are much colder.

[Beowulf]

Hi Beowulf
There was a slew of sightings in the early 80's when my mom saw it.

She was on our neighborhood dock ,summer time, late afternoon with her friend and there were also people(2 couples) who were getting off their salboat. something surfaced and started swimmimng toward them and the dock. once it got a few feet from them it disapeared under the water then surfaced again and started swimming away in another direction and eventually disapeared back under the water.

She said it was snake or eel like. Very large-30 to 40 feet long. Head was as large as a horses head and shaped like a football. Body was thick around as a telephone pole. Color was dark brownish/gray. Swam like a snake on the surface of the water (Side to side/horizontally). But she said at some points it also swam vertically-like up and down, in and out of the water. (Picture a sideways wavelength).

When it was gone they said "did you see that?" and also other conversation about it with the other people. They all saw it, though one of the men said something to the affect-"I'll never admit it".

When i got home everyone in my family was talking about it. Cheasapeake Magazine came out and interviewed my mom and her friend. Around the same time a famouse video was taken of it off of Kent Island. The video was examined by scientists from the Smithsonian I beleive and they determined that it was not a hoax and that it was a living organism ,swimming on its own, approx 30 feet long (or something like that).

I totally beleive my Mom. I think it was maybe a large anaconda that somehow got in the bay. If not that then who knows?

Nessie I beleive is possible but lesslikely as it is in a much smaller landlocked body of water and the temps are much colder.

That was a great story! Loved reading it. Man, love to know what that was.

[Beowulf]

The Kraken, by Tennyson

"Below the thunders of the upper deep;
Far far beneath in the abysmal sea,
His ancient, dreamless, uninvaded sleep
The Kraken sleepeth: faintest sunlights flee
About his shadowy sides; above him swell
Huge sponges of millennial growth and height;
And far away into the sickly light,
From many a wondrous grot and secret cell
Unnumber'd and enormous polypi
Winnow with giant arms the slumbering green.
There hath he lain for ages, and will lie
Battening upon huge seaworms in his sleep,
Until the latter fire shall heat the deep;
Then once by man and angels to be seen,
In roaring he shall rise and on the surface die.

[the glistening one]

The Kraken, by Tennyson

"Below the thunders of the upper deep;
Far far beneath in the abysmal sea,
His ancient, dreamless, uninvaded sleep
The Kraken sleepeth: faintest sunlights flee
About his shadowy sides; above him swell
Huge sponges of millennial growth and height;
And far away into the sickly light,
From many a wondrous grot and secret cell
Unnumber'd and enormous polypi
Winnow with giant arms the slumbering green.
There hath he lain for ages, and will lie
Battening upon huge seaworms in his sleep,
Until the latter fire shall heat the deep;
Then once by man and angels to be seen,
In roaring he shall rise and on the surface die.

Sorry to bump such an old thread, but I had to just say how much I adore this poem, and this thread. Crowley history, loch ness, the Kraken, cryptids and magic in general. Just 4 or 5 of my 6 or 7 favorite things! Many thanks for such great posts. Every time they come up I have zero self control and have to chime in lol. Mysteries, so alluring. But that’s enough from me. Thanks admins for allowing me on this delightful forum.

[Ms Diddles]

Sorry to bump such an old thread, but I had to just say how much I adore this poem, and this thread. Crowley history, loch ness, the Kraken, cryptids and magic in general. Just 4 or 5 of my 6 or 7 favorite things! Many thanks for such great posts. Every time they come up I have zero self control and have to chime in lol. Mysteries, so alluring. But that’s enough from me. Thanks admins for allowing me on this delightful forum.

Welcome aboard, Oh Glistening one!!!

Interesting moniker!

When I saw this thread I thought that perhaps Nessie had finally been found.