Ghosts....?

[Beowulf]

Well, I don't buy it but it's something to read how someone strives to find an explanation. Yes O'Donnell's was better. Thought-forms.

"...ghosts are projections of the minds of those who are subconsciously unable to cope with the loss of a friend or family member..."

I will not tell every ghost story I've experienced and bore you all but speaking of that explanation above, how about this, which happened to me 7 years ago:

My husband and I decided to go to Springerville, Az, Nelson Resevoir to be exact and to go fishing (well, HE came up with the idea, I went along with it, lol).

It's a five hour drive from Phoenix. We were late leaving and arrived in Springerville at 9pm in a howling dust storm. Springerville has one main street, creatively named 'Main Street' and we made a left turn onto it engaging in light conversation.

We headed straight down Main Street to our hotel, 2 blocks away on the same road, with the plan to go fishing in the morning. It was night and as I said the dust was blowing like mad straight across the road. On either side of the road was an alley, which dissected the road, unpaved dirt. There was a column of brown dust swirling and blowing across the road in a kind of wall in front of us about a half a block away.

In the middle of this brown wall centered in the road was a glowing white form, as if it were made of moonlight. The form was floating above the road.

My husband said to me, "Do you see that? It's a GHOST".

Because I'm the one always interested in ghosts you'd think I'd think and say that. But I didn't. I looked around for a street light to cast the shape, which was a vague shape of a human and the same size. There really was no source for the light at all.

As the car got nearer to it and were about to hit it, I started thinking 'what if it suddenly is inside with us?' but it undulated side to side and faded away inches from the hood.

It happened on May 5th. Next year we went up there again, thinking maybe it would repeat itself. It didn't.

Next day we had breakfast out and told our waitress the story, she said "That was the day of the terrible accident" The town is small and that was very memorable. She said to go to the local office of the paper, they'd likely give us a copy.

Amazingly to me they did give us a copy of the paper that had the article about the accident the waitress said happened last summer. We read in it that a young man, about 22, stole a car in Phoenix at gunpoint and drove to Eagar, next town over, got drunk in a bar and left driving over 100 mph. The police pursued him and the chase led down Main street, where he went out of control and crashed into a metal light pole, right next to the same spot where we saw the ghost. That accident happened only the night before we got there, but of course we did not know that till the following year.

It was actually thrilling, but that spot also happened to be next to our hotel. Needless to say, I slept poorly, thinking I might see a ghost there, too. I didn't.

Btw; Good name, Boris

[bolo]

Intriguing story, Beowulf, this must have been really intense. Personally I've never experienced something like that.

I also want to add that Adorno's text with its Freudian echoes does not necessarily reflect my opinion on paranormal phenomena, I merely rate is as a plausible explanation, just like O'Donnell's thoughts.

Let's put it this way, I don't allow myself to rule out the possibility of the existance of ghosts, even though the little naggin' rational thinker in me says otherwise. There's no proof that ghosts do exist but so far I haven't found proof of the opposite either so I'll return to my rather uncomfortable seat on the fence in this regard.

And yes, I'm proud to share my name with Boris Karloff, love his movies a lot.

[Beowulf]

"I also want to add that Adorno's text with its Freudian echoes does not necessarily reflect my opinion on paranormal phenomena, I merely rate is as a plausible explanation, just like O'Donnell's thoughts."

Sort of figured that, but it's good you put it up.

I love to read these stories. Cogidubnus's story about seeing his father was particularly interesting, because it occurred 6 months later and it was an actual relative. Kensei's I'm showing to my husband, because he believes people pick their parents before they are born, which I have long told him is not possible.

Also the one about seeing her teacher on a bike, Ginger's. It seems her teacher knew he was important to her.

I don't know how I would react to seeing my father, who passed away long ago now, but I would be I think relieved, believing he was 'somewhere', even though some would pass it off as a loop thing. I don't think it is. I have no good reason to believe that way, but I do.

Theories for this are all to be explored.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Hi Boris.

In short, Ad/Hork say that ghosts are projections of the minds of those who are subconsciously unable to cope with the loss of a friend or family member and then fill in the gaps so to speak with apparitions of dead people and/or sublimate the experience via parapsychological means such as spiritism. The process is non-linear, meaning that if one "tends to see ghosts", he or she may not necessarily see deceased family members but ghostly apparitions in general, including non-visual contacts (acoustic phenomena, etc.).

The great problem with this, as with many other explanations for hauntings, is that it doesn’t cover the whole spectrum of haunting experiences. How do the projections of the mind create EVP’s caught on audio tape? How does it allow multiple observers see the exact same thing? Or allow them to capture images in photographs and on video? And how do projections of the mind cause objects to move, disappear then reappear?

Suggesting that someone who caught something out of the corner of their eye is mistaken, or that their mind has played tricks on them, is one thing. Suggesting that the person, alone in a basement, who turns their back on a chair for only seconds and when they turn around find that the chair has moved three feet or so and is then positioned to block their exit (as happened to me), is mistaken or that their mind has played tricks on them, is another thing altogether.

Wolf.

[Abby Normal]

I've not seen one myself but keep a very open mind regarding them - I've known/know a few people who have seen/experienced them and I have no reason at all to doubt what they say - scary stuff it is too!

My thoughts exactly.

Anything is possible.

[bolo]

Hi Wolf,

The great problem with this, as with many other explanations for hauntings, is that it doesn’t cover the whole spectrum of haunting experiences. How do the projections of the mind create EVP’s caught on audio tape? How does it allow multiple observers see the exact same thing? Or allow them to capture images in photographs and on video? And how do projections of the mind cause objects to move, disappear then reappear?

Suggesting that someone who caught something out of the corner of their eye is mistaken, or that their mind has played tricks on them, is one thing. Suggesting that the person, alone in a basement, who turns their back on a chair for only seconds and when they turn around find that the chair has moved three feet or so and is then positioned to block their exit (as happened to me), is mistaken or that their mind has played tricks on them, is another thing altogether.

Adorno and Horkheimer adress the issue from a philosophical and psychological angle. Maybe I should have refrained from posting an interpretation of their words (which you quoted) as technically, their original text does not contain an absolute explanation for or statement against ghosts. However, the projection idea they refer to is well-documented in psychological case histories of people whose fear of or constant sighting of ghostly apparitions had such an impact on them that they had to seek medical attendance.

EVPs and other acoustic or visual recordings of possibly paranormal phenomena pose a problem for many professional parapsychological researchers and investigators. There are no agreed-upon methods to record that sort of stuff, most of the time they get recorded accidentally. It's also relatively difficult to get constant recordings of EVPs, even on one and the same spot, most of them are one-shots. In a world interspersed with electromagnetic waves (and speaking as someone who knows a thing or two about audio recording), it's also very difficult to tell what you just recorded on your little Zoom portable audio recorder... it may be a ghost from the 19th century, a digital echo bouncing off the ionosphere, an unshielded Chinese import DVD player, a crosstalking non-public traffic message channel... in other words, the sheer amount of very plausible non-paranormal explanations and the difficulties of eliminiating them one after another makes EVPs almost worthless.

Your basement experience sounds very interesting. Could you elaborate on that a little more, please?

Again, I'm not out to prove or disprove anything, I'm still in the process of data collection, so to speak.

Regards,

Boris

[Abby Normal]

Do you believe in ghosts?

Has anybody ever seen a ghost?

What do you think ghosts are?

A restless spirit?

A 'recording' of a past event which somehow left it's mark on time?

A product of mass hysteria?

I find this discussion fascinating. I personally have never seen a ghost (i dont think i have anyway) or any of the "big three" for that matter (ghosts, UFOs animal x) but some very credible people I know have, including my mom, who saw Chessie.

The closest I might have come was Governors bridge in rural MD. It was supposed to be haunted. The story at the time I went there (late 70s) was that it was supposedly a meeting place for runaway slaves, part of the underground railroad and that some were caught there and hung off the bridge. The first time i went there it was night and sure enough there was a noose hanging from the bridge. we got out of the car and walked out onto the bridge and noticed a camp fire and people talking down on the river bank below us. As we listened to what they were saying we could not really make out words but I remember remarking to my friend they sounded "old fashioned" like an accent. My friend ended up shouting out to them and the talking stopped and the fire went out. Totally creeped out we got out of there right quick. I did go back there a couple of times but never saw anything odd again, except that the limbs of an old tree had recently all been cut off-my friend said that the locals had done it because there were nooses always hanging off it. Anyway, obviously all could be explained "scientifically" but it sure was creepy.

[Bridewell]

About two years ago my wife and I were chatting in the kitchen of our house, next to the kitchen cupboard which is situated under the stairs. While we were talking I heard the unmistakable sound of someone descending the stairs. I said to her, "Did you hear that?" She replied, "Yes" and I said, "What did you hear?" to which she replied, "Someone coming down the stairs". There was no-one else in the house, but I went straight to the foot of the stairs (10 feet away) and saw nothing. We have two dogs but they were both downstairs and could not be elsewhere because we have a child gate at the foot of the stairs to prevent them going up. At her suggestion, I went up the stairs and came back down. She reported that my descent was identical to the sound she had heard. The only other phenomenon we've experienced is the occasional overpowering smell of garlic from the landing area at the top of the stairs. I can't explain this, but there is no doubt that the sound we heard was that of a (non-existent) person descending the stairs directly overhead.
The house was built about 1850 and was originally in use as a grain store.

Regards, Bridewell

[Bridewell]

This is why I ask if perhaps a ghost is like a recording; actually in its own time - so walking through the doors of that time which may now be walls or cupboards - but visible to some people in the present.

If there are 'ghosts' (whatever they are) I think the likely explanation for them being reported as doing strange things (walking through walls etc) is that it is this phenomenon which makes people aware that a 'ghost' is what they have seen. If a ghost was the apparently solid and life-like apparition of someone who was not actually there, how would you know them for what they were? Until they did something totally bizarre they would be taken for what they appeared to be - people. I'm not aware of ever having seen a ghost, but how would I know if I had?

Regards, Bridewell.

[curious]

If there are 'ghosts' (whatever they are) I think the likely explanation for them being reported as doing strange things (walking through walls etc) is that it is this phenomenon which makes people aware that a 'ghost' is what they have seen. If a ghost was the apparently solid and life-like apparition of someone who was not actually there, how would you know them for what they were? Until they did something totally bizarre they would be taken for what they appeared to be - people. I'm not aware of ever having seen a ghost, but how would I know if I had?

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi, Bridewell,

Perhaps if it was someone you knew to be dead? But that's a very good thought about why they walk through walls. Interesting.

I tend to believe that:

1. too many otherwise sane people have reported seeing "something" for there not to be something really going on

2. that there is a perfectly logical explanation that humans simply have not yet discovered

3. that someday an explanation will be found

I have considered -- without ANY research, just reading -- that perhaps these phenomena are somewhat like waves in the air. It was not that long ago that man learned to harness waves -- radio and TV for example. 200 years ago would anyone ever have believed radio and TV?

These phenomena being on waves would explain why some people experience them and others do not. Some people are "tuned in" others are not.

We are just now learning about the brain. So far as I know, it is now pretty well accepted that people use different hemispheres of the brain, explaining how artists are so "out there" from the way most folks think. Artists are "right brained" and accountants are "left brained". Their minds function very differently.

When my mother died in March, my brain quit working. I looked it up and it appears that studies indicate that the death of someone close can affect different sections of the brain -- not just mood and memory, but perception and conceptualization and perhaps others.

Anyway, back to ghosts. What if some portion of the brain is a tuner or receiver for such phenomena? In order to get a radio show, you have to be set to the right wave or band width. I'm guessing it might be the same with the supernatural.

Which would explain why ghosts appear in some cultures and not others. That sensitivity might have been bred out of entire areas, such as male facial hair on certain groups of men, which would explain a visitor seeing ghosts where the natives have no history of ghosts.

Just a personal explanation I have settled on as possible for my own self. It would be great if I live long enough for the explanation to be found.

curious

[curious]

Suggesting that someone who caught something out of the corner of their eye is mistaken, or that their mind has played tricks on them, is one thing. Suggesting that the person, alone in a basement, who turns their back on a chair for only seconds and when they turn around find that the chair has moved three feet or so and is then positioned to block their exit (as happened to me), is mistaken or that their mind has played tricks on them, is another thing altogether.

Wolf.

Hi, I have two examples of this.

I bought a sweet, good feeling farmhouse that is right at 100 years old. However, we have had a few things happen. They are not scary at all. Just interesting and intriguing.

My mother had a massive stroke in December 2008. I went into her home and pulled out several things to protect from theft or vandals since her home would be sitting empty.

My mother had a little crystal punch cup that was all she had from her favorite grandmother. It and a few other pieces of glassware were in a kitchen cabinet. I brought them home, wrapped them in dish cloths and put them in a small chest in the hall way.

In the spring, on Saturday as I was working in the yard I was running in and out of the house through the utility room. After I had made about a dozen passes (maybe just half-a-dozen, but certainly several) I was stopped in my tracks by a small crystal punch cup sitting in the middle of the floor. It looked as though it had simply been set down.

No explanation for that. There was not an empty dishcloth in the chest to indicate it had been there. I have no idea what was going on.

Another time, my son was at the back of the house, in the utility room, putting clothes in the washer and I was in the front of the house. We both heard a crash from the bathroom and ran to see what was going on. His toiletry basket was sitting in the floor.

It had been in an overhead cabinet, with a shut door, and behind an upright support, but it had come crashing to the floor.

As I mentioned, my little farm house is a feel good place, nothing the least bit scary.

curious

[Rubyretro]

Anyway, back to ghosts. What if some portion of the brain is a tuner or receiver for such phenomena? In order to get a radio show, you have to be set to the right wave or band width. I'm guessing it might be the same with the supernatural.

Which would explain why ghosts appear in some cultures and not others. That sensitivity might have been bred out of entire areas, such as male facial hair on certain groups of men, which would explain a visitor seeing ghosts where the natives have no history of ghosts.

Yes, I considered that too, Curious.

I used to live in Brittany, and the people there all believe in Ghosts, also in the Gallice part of Spain (next to the sea)...but those people are celt. Here in Provence, they don't have any stories (because of this thread, I've been questioning people again).

[curious]

Yes, I considered that too, Curious.

I used to live in Brittany, and the people there all believe in Ghosts, also in the Gallice part of Spain (next to the sea)...but those people are celt. Here in Provence, they don't have any stories (because of this thread, I've been questioning people again).

Are people there in Provence even interested in the supernatural?

curious

[Rubyretro]

Are people there in Provence even interested in the supernatural?

curious

Nope. They don't experience it nor have any interest or belief in it. I've always asked loads of questions, because I've always been fascinated by the difference in attitude with people in England, where I come from.

[Canopy]

100% KNOW they are real...

I am a very logical thinker and, frankly, if somebody went and told me that what happened to me had happened to them I would nod a lot. I would nod and smile and secretly think 'nutter'! However, I have been scared half to death (which resulted in me barricading a door through means of a wardrobe in a DIFFERENT room to that the incident happened and staying awake until morning!!!) due to some 'spirit' deciding that they wished to go about 'checking up' on my (then under 1 year old) daughter while she was in bed with me...I am very sure - 100% sure - that there are indeed spirits that visit/are stuck/whatever (!) on this Earth...The 'spirit' decided to firstly fill the room with some over-powering perfume (whereby it almost choked you to breath!) and when I uttered to myself (having been awoken by the smell and checked the room for possible cause) 'LAVENDER!' the door swung open almost dramatically and some 'wind' (for a want of a better word) filled the room all breathing 'YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS" !!! NEVER have I been so scared! Those seeking to 'make contact' with the 'other side' are far braver than I! HONESTLY considered taking the baby and making a jump for it through the window I was that scared!!! MANAGED to stick my hand out and pull the light cord from my semi-frozen state of fear and the 'yes' thing cut...TOOK daughter into HER room, barricaded the door, pulled curtains and sat wide awake and scared until dawn.
100% SURE they are real in my logical head. WILL NOT tell the story to many for fear of 'nodding' and thoughts of 'nutter' in daily life but 100% CERTAIN.
Nothing to mess with my mind - husband had gone out to see mates and I was in sole charge of making sure our baby was okay (hence why I took her into my bed...) I KNOW that it happened though I wouldn't believe it if it wasn't me!