W.T. Stead On The Titanic- Myths Vs. Facts

[Archaic]

Hi everyone.

While browsing an excellent W.T. Stead blog I found a very interesting segment that discusses what really to Stead as the Titanic went down- did he sit quietly smoking in the smoking room as depicted in the movie 'A Night To Remember' or not?

I was wondering if any of you might have personal opinions or other facts to share.

Stead and Titanic: http://www.attackingthedevil.co.uk/b...=post&id=1&p=1

'Attacking the Devil' W.T. Stead Resource Site Home Page: http://www.attackingthedevil.co.uk/index.php

-By the way, it's a great website if you haven't already seen it.

Best regards,
Archaic

[louisa]

Hi

I'm not sure I'd agree that he was the most famous passenger on the Titanic though. Surely that would be J.J. Astor?

[Ben]

Hi Archaic,

I'd agree with the article's conclusion that Kemish was unlikely to have recognised the editor in the smoking room. Like most of the passengers, Stead's ultimate fate is unknown, but despite the fact that his body was never recovered, it is likely that he made it topside. He was apparently standing outside the smoking room when the iceberg struck, and told survivor Algernon Barkworth - who emerged from the room to investigate the "jolting" - that he had witnessed it scraping along the hull and disappearing aft. The last reliable sighting of Stead came from his bedroom steward, Andrew Cunningham, who helped him into his life jacket, but this was well in advance of the sinking.

All the best,
Ben

[Mayerling]

Hi all,

Well I can say one thing - Stead may have clung to a raft until he froze or drowned, but Col. Astor was crushed to death by the fall of the smokestack. Astor's body (like Isidor Straus's) was recovered, and showed serious physical njures linked to the fall of the stack - not drowning or freezing.

Stead most likely helped into the lifeboats (he would have been like that). He probably was praying in his last moments. The idea reading anything (outside a copy of the Bible) is unlikely - but it does suggest fearlessness (as does helping the women and children).

By the way, he was one of the two best known writers on the Titanic. The other was the mystery writer Jacques Futrelle, creator of the character of "The Thinking Machine" (Professor Van Dusen). There was also one survivor who was a writer: Major Archibald Gracie, author of the then definitive account, THE TRUTH ABOUT CHICAMAUGA (where Colonel Gracie's father fought in the Civil War) , and his second (posthumous book) was about the sinking of the Titanic.

Jeff

[louisa]

I've read stacks of books about the Titanic but I don't ever remember reading that J.J. Astor suffered injuries due to the smokestack falling on him.

I'm not saying it didn't happen but this is the first I've heard of it.

[Ben]

Hi Jeff,

One of the many women Gracie "chaperoned" during the trip was Helen Churchill Candee, who was yet another author.

Hi Louisa,

The story involving Astor's supposedly crushed body also originated with Col. Gracie, referred to by Jeff above. In his well-known survivor account, The Truth About the Titanic, Gracie related that the person who identified the body of his friend, Edward Kent, had seen Astor's body and apparently testified to its "crushed" state. This is quite at odds with the description of the body given by the family, who claimed it before any other onlookers - such as Kent's claimant - had an opportunity to scrutinize it. My own theory is that Gracie's communication somehow became garbled, and that it was Kent's body that sustained injuries, not Astor's. The presence of a badly crushed silver hip flask found amongst his possessions might support this, and such injuries could have been sustained during the sinking. I doubt very much that any body smashed by a falling final would have been amongst those later recovered. The "crushed body" is undoubtedly a myth borne of garbled communication.

All the best,
Ben

[Adam Went]

W.T. Stead may not have been one of the most "famous" people on board the Titanic by definition of the word, but he was certainly one of the most influential and was very highly regarded in media circles.

I don't think there's any serious reason to doubt that he spent his last moments quietly in the smoking room of the ship, or elsewhere for that matter - he was not a young man anymore, he had achieved plenty in his lifetime (not least the saga of the raising of the age of consent in the 1880's) and, like Isidor and Ida Strauss, he probably knew when his time was up and tried to face it in the most dignified manner possible.

Louisa:

It is very much true that JJ Astor was injured quite badly when the smokestack fell on him and other passengers who were in the water as the ship went under.

Ben:

Helen Churchill Candee was a real character, a real strong woman of her time.....much like Molly Brown in her own way I suppose, wasn't afraid of having an opinion. She was travelling alone on the Titanic and a group of men quickly organised themselves as her travelling companions - they called themselves "Our Coterie". She later described the Titanic sinking as "A fancy dress ball in Dante's Hell". One of her books which you mention was a how-to guide for women to get along in life without a man. She lived until the age of 90 or so as well, IIRC.....

Cheers,
Adam.

[kensei]

Anyone know if Thomas Andrews' body was recovered? I heard a radio interview once with a fellow who claimed to be his reincarnation and that he was crushed by the falling smokestack. He said he was standing at the clock where he was officialy last seen, but then heard someone say that Bruce Ismay had just gotten on a lifeboat. Indignant at this and grumbling "That damn dirty so-and-so..." he'd then stormed up on deck- just as the smokestack was toppling. Who knows? In the movie it happened to that fictional Italian kid.

[Nemo]

In researching Simla recently, I came across some statements by Alice Dracott

In her book "Voice of Mystic India" she relates that Stead was a great friend of hers and that he used to post her copies of his publication

Dracott is somewhat of a psychic and tells of some ghostly visitations in her life, always adding some proof from the ghost that the encounter is real after asking the question "How will I know it is you?"

After hearing of the Titanic disaster, Dracott writes an obituary and shortly after receives a spoken message from Stead "Thank you. That was a very kind appreciation you wrote about me in The Pioneer"

After her usual question he just says "Wimbledon Common" and a date

A few years later she receives a copy of "Stead the Man" and before she opens it tells her husband she feels as though a message might be in it - upon opening it her eyes almost immediately see the words "Wimbledon Common"

This encouraged her to write to Stead's daughter with mention of the date, but she hadn't heard back from her

She also states "Strangely enough a message that has come to me more than once since the Titanic disaster has been "W. Stead did NOT drown: but was carried on an iceberg to some distant island." About this, "The wish may be father to the thought"

It has some connotations with a theme of maritime disaster in Stead's writings, such as the following...

http://www.answers.com/topic/william-thomas-stead

There was a constant dispute between Stead and the Society for Psychical Research. "What are known as psychical research methods," wrote Edith K. Harper in her book Stead, the Man (1918), "was abhorrent to him. He held them truly unscientific in the most extended meaning of the word. He said he would rather die in the workhouse than believe that anyone would tell him a deliberate falsehood for the mere purpose of deceiving him."

Speaking against the society in admitting evidence of communications from the dead, Stead drew, before the members of the Cosmos Club in 1909, a graphic, imaginary picture of himself, shipwrecked and drowning in the sea and calling frantically for help. He imagined that instead of throwing him a rope the rescuers would shout back: "Who are you? What is your name? 'I am Stead! W. T. Stead! I am drowning here in the sea. Throw me the rope. Be quick!' But instead of throwing me the rope they continue to shout back: 'How do we know you are Stead? Where were you born? Tell us the name of your grandmother.' "


It may be a coincidence but I only came across this recently and came on the boards today meaning to post it - and saw this thread!

Woooooooh....spooky

[Ben]

Hi Adam,

Yes, Candee was a quite a character, and her account of the sinking in particularly vivid and memorable. She doesn't provide names for the individuals she described, including those of her "coterie", but it is fairly clear who she was referring to in each instance.

As I mentioned, the myth that Astor was injured or crushed by the falling funnel is just that. While many passengers and crew fell foul of the funnel(s), Astor clearly wasn't one of them. As for Stead's ultimate fate, my guess is that he never seriously entertained the prospect of the ship sinking with serious loss of life until it was too late. One of the reason for the under-filling of the lifeboats was the unwillingness of the passengers to enter them, assuming the larger ship to be safer. There was even a widespread assumption that there were other ships in the vicinity, to which one lifeboat-load after another would be transferred. Even the Strauses, who were older than Stead, made for the stern of the ship shortly after the last lifeboat was lowered knowing it to be the remaining "dry" portion. It seems rather unlikely that anyone remained within the confines of the ship out of choice, knowing that it was sinking.

All the best,
Ben

[Mayerling]

I just checked the Wikipedia article on John Jacob Astor IV and it too mentions that there were persistant rumors that his body showed signs of being crushed, but that those who examined it before it was buried said it looked normal. Interestingly enough, in the 1997 blockbuster film TITANIC, Astor is killed when the grand ballroom gets flooded as it's glass roof is destroyed.

There is a problem I thought of regarding the issue of the falling funnel. It was (I thought) tied to the matter of the ship splitting in half. Very few of the survivors thought it split in half (only one - I that it was Jack Thayer Jr. - actually drew a series of sketchs showing this happening). If so, why would it become such an attention grabber without the hundreds noticing that the boat was now in half?

The Wikipedia article mentioned that the second Mrs. Astor (pregnant with his second son, the future John Jacob Astor VI) and her maid survived, but not Victor Robbins (Astor's valet) nor his airedale Kitty. It also mentioned the apochryphal story that after the berg hit he supposedly quipped, "I asked for ice, but this is ridiculous!" I suspect most people just thought it was a silly joke that surfaced (no pun intended) decades after the shock of the disaster (similar to "Aside from that, how did you lie the play, Mrs. Lincoln?").

Jeff

[louisa]

In one of the books that I read it said that the 'I ordered ice but this is ridiculous' quotation was probably made up because JJA was never known for his humour.

When JJA's body was recovered by the Mackay Bennett, it was identified by the collar, printed with his initials. He was also wearing brown boots.

Only the 1st and 2nd class passengers' bodies were taken back for a decent burial. All the others had to be put back into the sea as fish food.

It's a shame that Kitty couldn't have been saved, but then, I'm an animal lover.

It was lucky that Madeleine Astor was pregnant because it gave her more of a claim to the Astor fortune.

[Errata]

I have always been suspicious of eyewitness accounts from the final moments of the ship. I can understand someone seeing a guy in the lounge before the evacuation was ordered and assuming the guy stayed there till the end. But somehow it just seems that if you are rushing for a lifeboat and you look up and think " my god! is that W.T. Stead at the poker table?" then your priorities are clearly not in such good order that it would enhance your chances of survival.

To me it breaks down to two truths. If you were on a lifeboat, you can place someone in location, but not in time. Clearly you would have no idea if the person you saw stayed there until the end. If you weren't in a lifeboat, and were in fact on the ship as it broke apart and sank, likely you were dead. But if you did not die, you were in no condition to give a crap about who was at the poker table.

It's like the "Nearer my God to Thee" thing. Nobody heard the same song from the band because they were concentrating on something else. Some say it was "Nearer my God to Thee". Others remember other songs. But the only people who can answer that question with any authority died that night.

[Adam Went]

Hey all,

Kensei:

Off the top of my head, no, I don't believe the body of Thomas Andrews was ever recovered, like the vast majority of victims. He went down with the ship. He was always a man who loved technology and it really struck me in the film Ghosts Of The Abyss when Bill Paxton said something along the lines of "If only there was some way for Thomas Andrews to be able to see these little robots [Jake and Elwood] exploring his ship...."

Nemo:

Very interesting....I wonder how long it would have taken to float to the nearest land on an iceberg from the middle of the North Atlantic? I'd suggest W.T. would have been very old, and very cold, by the time he arrived.

Ben:

Indeed you're right, I double checked about Astor and it is an apparently fallacy, though it's been expounded plenty of times of the years. Seems I was led into the myth as well....

As for Candee's "Our Coterie" group, there is an excellent biography of her, along with many other passengers and families in Judith B. Geller's "Titanic: Women and Children First" - according to that, "Our Coterie" consisted of, aside from Helen: Edward A. Kent, Hugh Woolner, Edward Colley, Clinch Smith, Hakan Mauritz Bjornstrom-Steffanson and Colonel Archibald Gracie.

Louisa:

It's not entirely true that it was only the bodies of the wealthy who were recovered for burial, it was more case of recovering the bodies of those who were still in a condition fit enough to do so - there was not the technology to take care of such bodies then as there is now, especially on board a ship. There may have been more care taken of the bodies of the wealthy but most of those unidentified victims buried in cemeteries such as Halifax are from the poorer classes and the crew.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Mayerling]

Hey all,

Louisa:

It's not entirely true that it was only the bodies of the wealthy who were recovered for burial, it was more case of recovering the bodies of those who were still in a condition fit enough to do so - there was not the technology to take care of such bodies then as there is now, especially on board a ship. There may have been more care taken of the bodies of the wealthy but most of those unidentified victims buried in cemeteries such as Halifax are from the poorer classes and the crew.

Cheers,
Adam.

Hi Adam,

I agree that the selection of bodies that were pulled out of the ocean was more equal to the classes on board Titanic than the permission given to enter the lifeboats, but I believe one of the problems was that the gulf stream currents caused the bulk of the bodies to be farther away from the area that was examined for corpses. One writer (I can't say who - possibly Wade or Marcus) mentioned that for months after the disaster ships crossing the Atlantic spotted corpses bobbing up and down. It is also possible that a number of people never left the ship but drowned in their staterooms or other rooms.

Jeff