Ufology

[Scorpio]

Here is an interesting Brazilian case and a good example of sub set of UFO mythology which was spawned by Roswell: the crash.
Some time around the 20th January 1994, an American owned satellite observes an object entering the Earths atmosphere and informs Brazilian authories that the object is due to enter its airspace. Hundreds of independent reports of UFO's over central Brazil at this time offer some circumstantial evidence of this event; But it is near the small industrial town Varginha in eastern Brazil that the tale developes. A local journalist reports a large fire on the edge of town; sources within the military police confirm that a soldier present at this event died within weeks of the incident, while blood test results confirm the an eight percent presence of toxic substances.
Another soldier witness makes a statement claiming that a creature was found at the site, taken to a local hospital and died during procedures. Another creature matching the earlier description (small,ugly, long nailed and dark oily skinned) a is seen by townspeople .
The Varginha fire department confirm that they were called to an incident on the 20th January, but the senior officer denies any UFO'S or creatures. Military authorities claim that reports of a creature was in fact a dwarf couple present at the hospital at that time.

[sdreid]

If I recall, one of the most famous unexplained UFO photographs (or series of photos) is also from Brazil. It's the one where the "vehicle" that looks sort of like a blurry picture of the planet Saturn is seen over water and next to a shoreline bluff.

[Beowulf]

Travis Walton claims he was a reluctant prisoner of E.T's for a while. I get the feeling when listening to Waltons tale, that he is trapped in a fiction in which he can no longer escape from.

Might be disinformation.

[Chris Scott]

I've only just really caught up with this thread!
Ufology is a subject about which I have very mixed feelings and about which I find it impossible to come to any firm conclusions.
On the logical side there is so much that militates against UFOs and their appearance. The unimaginably vast distances involved even from the nearest possible sources of intelligent and technologically advanced life make the travel times involved absurd. Assuming there is not any technically evolved form of life in our own solar system (not to dismiss the possibility of less highly evolved lifeforms) then the nearest possible source (assuming said lifeform evolved on a planet orbiting a star) is Proxima Centauri, at an average distance of 4.2 light years.
So even if a lifeform could achieve anywhere near light speed with all the attendant problems that would bring (depending on their physical form) then a round journey to Earth would be a minimum of about 9 earth years. I cannot see the sense of a lifeform travelling for at least 4.5 years (possibly considerably longer) and, when they arrive, flitting about in our atmosphere for a brief period, being seen by a few people and then heading off again. Of course some accounts suggest much closer interaction such as abduction stories but I have to say that these stories, especially with their common motif of intrusive procedures, often of a sexual nature, say more about the psychology of the abductees than the physical reality of what may have happened.
These reservations are set within the limits of what we know of physical science. Once we get into the realms of speculation and pseudo science (often invoked in an attempt to provide a mechanism to allow travel over the vast distances involved) such as wormholes, faster than light travel, telepathy, etc. then it is very hard to judge the merits of these cases. To be maybe overly sceptical, it should never be forgotten that there can be considerable financial incentives to having a good UFO story to market. Indeed some writers have made a lucrative career from the subject. A good comment on this is the Jonathan Creek episode "The Omega Man," which I recommend.
However, having said all that I come back to the conviction that not all those who see or experience something UFO related are deluded or poor observers. And some of the filmed episodes of UFO sightings I have seen are so bizarre and so obviously NOT a normal airplane or a freak weather condition that I am left guessing.
Many of the supposed explanations of UFOs - especially those that involve pseudo science and the paranormal - I am very sceptical of. But there have been a large number of experiences, some of them recorded on film or photo, which I find very hard to explain in a convincing way.

[kensei]

Chris- Think of our own human race, and how much more advanced we of today are in our technology from our stone age ancestors. That's a difference of tens of thousands of years. What if there are intelligent races on other worlds who have been around for millions of years longer than us? Where would they be technologically right now? You mention that you are aware of the theories of wormholes and other ways in which intergalactic travel might be accomplished, bending time and space so that light years might be traversed in an instant. The science behind those theories is sound and not "pseudo science", we just don't have the technology yet to acheive it. Maybe somebody else does. You used the term "paranormal" in association with "pseudo science." I think there is a tendency to make the word "paranormal" synonymous with "supernatural." Paranormal simply means outside the norm, something we are not used to but which might some day be explained by science. Supernatural means outside the laws of science and physics. I think that something like true magic, if it exists, would be the only thing that could truly be called supernatural. The technology of aliens far more advanced than us that allows them to travel here would be considered paranormal now, but might one day be completely understood.

And when it comes to abduction reports and similar stories of people encountering aliens, there is a category of reports in which there is strong evidence that something is really going on. Pregnant women have had their pregnancies simply disappear- no miscarriage, they simply aren't pregnant anymore. People claiming abduction have been observed to be literally gone from their homes by corroborating witnesses during the time that an incident is supposed to have been taking place. Things like that. It is not all about the psychology of the people involved. And when skeptics say things like, "Why would aliens do such-and-such" or "There is no way that aliens would travel this far only to do this," etc. etc., I have always thought that if we are dealing with aliens we really have to dwell on that word. ALIEN. There would be nothing about them that we are even capable of understanding. Not only would we not have all the answers, we wouldn't even know what questions to ask. Therefore, anything they do here on Earth absolutely does not have to conform to any kind of condition as to what makes sense to us.

[Scorpio]

I've only just really caught up with this thread!
Ufology is a subject about which I have very mixed feelings and about which I find it impossible to come to any firm conclusions.
On the logical side there is so much that militates against UFOs and their appearance. The unimaginably vast distances involved even from the nearest possible sources of intelligent and technologically advanced life make the travel times involved absurd. Assuming there is not any technically evolved form of life in our own solar system (not to dismiss the possibility of less highly evolved lifeforms) then the nearest possible source (assuming said lifeform evolved on a planet orbiting a star) is Proxima Centauri, at an average distance of 4.2 light years.
So even if a lifeform could achieve anywhere near light speed with all the attendant problems that would bring (depending on their physical form) then a round journey to Earth would be a minimum of about 9 earth years. I cannot see the sense of a lifeform travelling for at least 4.5 years (possibly considerably longer) and, when they arrive, flitting about in our atmosphere for a brief period, being seen by a few people and then heading off again. Of course some accounts suggest much closer interaction such as abduction stories but I have to say that these stories, especially with their common motif of intrusive procedures, often of a sexual nature, say more about the psychology of the abductees than the physical reality of what may have happened.
These reservations are set within the limits of what we know of physical science. Once we get into the realms of speculation and pseudo science (often invoked in an attempt to provide a mechanism to allow travel over the vast distances involved) such as wormholes, faster than light travel, telepathy, etc. then it is very hard to judge the merits of these cases. To be maybe overly sceptical, it should never be forgotten that there can be considerable financial incentives to having a good UFO story to market. Indeed some writers have made a lucrative career from the subject. A good comment on this is the Jonathan Creek episode "The Omega Man," which I recommend.
However, having said all that I come back to the conviction that not all those who see or experience something UFO related are deluded or poor observers. And some of the filmed episodes of UFO sightings I have seen are so bizarre and so obviously NOT a normal airplane or a freak weather condition that I am left guessing.
Many of the supposed explanations of UFOs - especially those that involve pseudo science and the paranormal - I am very sceptical of. But there have been a large number of experiences, some of them recorded on film or photo, which I find very hard to explain in a convincing way.

The lucrative nature of Ufology is an interesting relative aspect of the phenomena, as are abduction claims. The Betty and Barney Hill case is the only one which i have read about. Zeta Reticulli and all that.

[Scorpio]

Amongst the claims of extraterrestrial encounters, i have not noticed any reports of violence commited on any person; they always seem curious, if somewhat heavy handed, in human relations,but not hostile. This is counter intuitive to the way i imagined;just about every supernatural or paranormal manifestation has associations with physical or verbal assault, or even homicide. Psychiatrists would no doubt consider this a psycho drama driven by unconcious anxiety or fantasy. Does a non violent and sometimes indifferent nature of E.T s suggest another more realistic source?.

[kensei]

Amongst the claims of extraterrestrial encounters, i have not noticed any reports of violence commited on any person; they always seem curious, if somewhat heavy handed, in human relations,but not hostile. This is counter intuitive to the way i imagined;just about every supernatural or paranormal manifestation has associations with physical or verbal assault, or even homicide. Psychiatrists would no doubt consider this a psycho drama driven by unconcious anxiety or fantasy. Does a non violent and sometimes indifferent nature of E.T s suggest another more realistic source?.

Suggest you Google "Human mutilations by aliens." Violence to humans is rare but not completely absent from the phenomenon.

[martin wilson]

It's been a long time since I read it but the Fortean Times used to be a good source of information for anyone interested in Ufo's.
Like Ripper investigation there are serious ufologists who go back to primary sources and a lot of the classic cases have been reinvestigated,and of course various explanations and theories put forward.
As I say,it's been a long time,but from memory,unless you are Stephen Fry,you might find a good dictionary comes in handy,those guys never used one syllable when 15 would do.
All the best.

[Scorpio]

The Witnesses 1

One of the most notorious UFO cases occured at Rendlesham Forest, Suffolk, England in 1980. One witness,of many invoved in the case, is Charles Halt.
How does Halt perform as a witness?.
Certain circumstances seem to stand in his favour: Charles Halt was the deputy commander of the airforce base; he was a high ranking career Officer, most unlikely to threaten his career with hoaxes. Halt did not make the original claims, but acted upon the evidence of others. Halt did not seek any form of gratification; the case was not divulged untill three years later by the the News of the World tabloid, with details provided by a man called Larry Warren, who was a former security policeman at the airbase.
But what about the reliability and validity of the evidence provided?. Halt made an audio tape of the incident; he mentions flashing red lights moving through the trees, pieces of a small UFO ' shooting off ', and of light beams projected at there feet. Audio recordings are reliable enough;they provide a excellent evidence of men walking around the woods in the middle of the night: branches scraping against clothes and equipment and farm animal noises. Audio recordings are hardly conclusive; there are serious validity issues here.
Is there any concensus between reports of those present with Halt at the time; after so much time and opportunity to be influenced by each others oft stated evidence in the public domain, that the question seems to be not worth the asking.
Is anyone well acquanted with the case; perhaps you can offer some insight.

[sdreid]

I don't know a lot about about the case but I believe I saw it on Unsolved Mysteries.

[Jonathan H]

Like the Ripper 'Diary', and Roswell, and Big Foot, and Nessie, it's an hoax.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/east/series3/rendlesham_ufos.shtml

[kensei]

Like the Ripper 'Diary', and Roswell, and Big Foot, and Nessie, it's an hoax.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/east/...ham_ufos.shtml

Only one of those four things is a hoax, and I'm very conscious of what website this is in saying that. (The Ripper Diary.)

This hoax claim shows quite a bit of ignorance of the full scope of the Bentwaters (Rendlesham Forest) case. The night of Halt's experience was preceeded by another night on which two soldiers approached a landed UFO after seeing strange lights in the woods. One of them even touched it and took note of an unknown type of writing it had on its surface before it rose back up and disappeared. Later examination of the site found indentations left in the ground by the craft and tree branches broken off by its descent through the forest canopy. Furthermore, on the night of Halt's observations, while he and company were out in the woods, things were going on back at the base involving a craft hovering directly over the nuclear missile silos and shining some kind of beam down on them. Electronic lighting devices called light-alls the soldiers brought in to try and aid them in their investigations were mysteriously malfunctioning. If you study the case in depth there is just point after point that are incredibly compelling.

But nope, once some guy claims that he caused the whole thing by shining a flashlight into the sky, the public at large just says, "Oh, that's it then."

An incredible claim is made, and skeptics put it under the microscope and pick it apart in minute detail to try and demonstrate why it must be a hoax. But when an admission of a hoax is made, those same skeptics just immediately go, "There, you see?" without a fraction of the same kind of scrutiny. We need to demand just as much proof for the claim "I hoaxed a UFO" as we do for the claim "I saw a UFO."

[Jonathan H]

No we don't, Kensei, because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and there's nothing. just what people claim they saw and felt and were told to shut up about. They offer nothing else and it's not even the start of being enough to measure, to verify or to analyse.

I beg you to check out this site, pick any chapter:

http://home.comcast.net/~tprinty/UFO/UFO.htm

[Phil H]

kensei

I have looked into the Rendlesham Forest case in some depth - I found nothing that convinced me that - while something may have happened, it was about extra-terrestrials. It could have been an accident with some top secret aircraft for instance. I am certain that many of the UFO sightings in the Uk over the years were of US "stealth" aircraft being used against UK air defences (with or without British knowledge) before the revolutionary design of those planes were public knowledge.

To me the great difficulty is in finding any testimony that stacks up.

With Roswell, around the time of the anniversary in the mid-90s, I got hold of all the in-print books I could. I then set out to find any statements that agreed - my rule of thumb was if I could find two books that said the same thing, i would record that as a "fact". Result? I found not a single fact.

Every statement either changed over time, the informant was discredited, or there was no precise data - times, or dates. It was all vague. Most books disagree even on basic times and places.

My conclusion - that it is for those who believe that extra-terrestrials are visiting earth to produce real evidence of that.

I have spoken to locals who believe in "Nessie" but I have yet to see any SOLID evidence of his/her existence. It becomes even more unbelievable in this era of digital cameras and cameras in phones. Has the monster become camera shy?

On balance, I think UFOs are the modern equivalent of ghosts and sightings of the devil - and most likely related to real events being perceived incorrectly or misinterpreted.

I wish that was not the case, but after much hard thought, that is the conclusion I have reached.

Phil H