ratcliffe highway murders

[kangacaught]

Has anyone seen photo of Marr's shop? PD James says it was destroyed in the blitz in 1940 so in theory there could have beem an enterprising snapper.

[Chris]

Has anyone seen photo of Marr's shop? PD James says it was destroyed in the blitz in 1940 so in theory there could have beem an enterprising snapper.

It would be particularly interesting to know because - in one of the stranger Ripperological coincidences - Aaron Kozminski's brother Woolf lived in 1918-9 at 29A St George Street, which would correspond to the address of Marr's shop if the houses had not been renumbered in the interim. Judging from the Post Office Directory, the numbering couldn't have been very much different at that time. On the other hand, Thomas Burke, writing in 1928 (The Ecstasies of Thomas de Quincey, p. 309) says that the numbering had changed by then. I've never got to the bottom of this.

Of course, there's no shortage of contemporary illustrations of the shop:

[Chris]

Actually, perhaps Winston Ramsey's "East End Then and Now" would have a photo. According to online sources, he does cover the murders.

[kangacaught]

Off to Waterstones tomorrow. The Kosminski link is also interesting as New Gravel La was the site of The Pear Tree pub as I recall.

[Natalie Severn]

I had just come away from a splendid talk by Paul Begg [+ preview ] of the Documentary Paul and others made last Autumn and had left the meeting by car, only to discover that road works had caused all traffic to be redirected.It had begun to pour down with rain and I took a wrong turning but knew roughly where I was so headed back towards Tower Hill when I came unexpectedly to some cross roads where Cannon Street Rd and Cable Street meet -it's where the main suspect for the murders was taken to "rest" ---- putting it mildly since the locals put a pick axe through his body --or something similar. I had read PD James brilliant book on the Ratcliffe Highway murders a couple of years back and seemed to recognise the old shops in Cannon Street Road near the church of St George"s in the East from the old drawings she had used from the time it happened which are very close to the Highway.I had never been there before and with the rain by then having developed into a gale and the branches of the trees crashing around Hawksmoor"s church the deserted place seemed really haunted and spooky .Across the Highway you could see down towards the river and Old Gravel Lane [now Wapping Lane] the masts of the pirate ships in tobacco dock.I went back there to explore Wapping High Street a few weeks later and saw that the streets are still cobbled -Wapping High Street runs alongside the Thames.The site of the new River Police building is where the old station was that people were questioned on the murders and parts of the old building appears to remain.Its a very beautiful part of London now with lots of historic buildings and pubs on the river,including The Prospect of Whitby which was built during the reign of Henry 8th.Well worth a visit!.

Norma

[Rob Clack]

It would be particularly interesting to know because - in one of the stranger Ripperological coincidences - Aaron Kozminski's brother Woolf lived in 1918-9 at 29A St George Street, which would correspond to the address of Marr's shop if the houses had not been renumbered in the interim. Judging from the Post Office Directory, the numbering couldn't have been very much different at that time. On the other hand, Thomas Burke, writing in 1928 (The Ecstasies of Thomas de Quincey, p. 309) says that the numbering had changed by then. I've never got to the bottom of this.

Hi Chris,

The numbering was the same up until at least 1915. I haven't seen a directory after that date so I can't confirm if they had changed after that date.

The 1799 Horwood Map shows where number 29 was:



As does the 1887 Goad map.



The 1915 directory confused me as it showed number 40 as being on the corner with Johns Hill. But that must be an error and should come after number 33. The 'Crooked Billet' is listed at 32 in the 1882, 1895 and the 1915 directory so there could not have been any renumbering.



Rob

[Chris]

Rob

Thanks very much for this. I did check the directories from 1918-9 previously, and number 29 was certainly in roughly the right place (though I don't think I kept a note of the exact positions given for Artichoke Hill and John's Hill). So I'd guess the numbering was unchanged up until then - in which case either it changed between 1919 and 1928, or else Burke was mistaken about the location of the shop (from what I saw his information about the murders wasn't very accurate).

[Chris]

Actually, perhaps Winston Ramsey's "East End Then and Now" would have a photo. According to online sources, he does cover the murders.

I checked a copy, and despite more than a dozen photos of places associated with the murders, there wasn't one of the shop. Presumably that means none is known, or at least none was known when the book was written.

[Mayerling]

I checked a copy, and despite more than a dozen photos of places associated with the murders, there wasn't one of the shop. Presumably that means none is known, or at least none was known when the book was written.

While we are at it, has anyone located a map, or drawing, or (be still my heart) a photo of the inn run by Mr. Williamson that was the scene of the second series of murders, and the start of the events that led to the arrest of John Williams? We won't go into the question P. D. James and her collaborator came up with: was Williams he guilty killer or not?

Funny personal note. I got into a literary conversation with the late Martin Gardner, when he did his first edition of THE ANNOTATED FATHER BROWN. Actually it is the annotated first set of short stories of Chesterton's detective. In the best known Brown story, THE BLUE CROSS, Chesterton makes a comment that a man named Williams kills a man named Williamson and it sounds like a father killing his child. There was a note in the first edition of THE ANNOTATED FATHER BROWN in which Gardner said he could not find this murder case. I wrote to him and explained it was the 1811 Ratchliffe Highway murders. He wrote me a response and promised to mention it if he ever had a second edition of THE ANNOTATED FATHER BROWN. Well he did about five or six years back. I did not know then, but subsequently discovered it on the internet. He mentioned me and what I discovered about the connection to the 1811 case.

Jeff

[Chris]

While we are at it, has anyone located a map, or drawing, or (be still my heart) a photo of the inn run by Mr. Williamson that was the scene of the second series of murders, and the start of the events that led to the arrest of John Williams?

There is certainly a drawing:

http://www.thamespolicemuseum.org.uk/h_ratcliffehighwaymurders_3.html

I don't think Ramsey had a photo, though I'm not absolutely sure, as it was Marr's shop I was looking for.