Richard III and the princes in the tower

[Eppi]

At the heart of of any book about Richard III lies the events of spring /summer of 1483-was he a victim of circumstances or was he pulling the strings backstage?
I have always been pro Richard and firmly believed in his innocence.That is,until recently.
what has awoken my suspicions is the executions of Rivers ,Grey and Vaughan and the man who carried it out-the earl of Northumberland.
Overseeing their execution he closely linked himself with Richard,and also alienating the supposedly new king Edward V by killing his uncle and half brother.so the question is,how can he believed to avoid retaliation from Edward and his woodville kin once the boy was crowned?
At this point richard was still maintaining his protectorate,not yet having made his bid for the throne.The answer seems to be that richard must have filled him in on plans to make himself king ant thereby letting Northumberland of the hook regarding any questions of guilt in the matter.
If Percy at this point had inside knowledge,he must have known at a very early stage thus making it feasible that they were all in on a preconceived plan.This changes the scene a little doesnt it?
As mentioned earlier i have always been a ricardian and this isnt something i
throw out there for the hell of it(As someone indeed seems to be doing here at times)but rather to have a discussion about it-And that someone proves me wrong.Nothing would please me more............
So,Anyone?

[Phryne Fisher]

Hi Eppi

Welcome to the forum. I share your interest in Richard and the fate of the princes, as do a few other members here. We chatted about it awhile ago:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1104

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

May I recommend "The Daughter of Time" by Josephine Tey.

Quite brilliant.

Regards,

Simon

[Eppi]

Hi Eppi

Welcome to the forum. I share your interest in Richard and the fate of the princes, as do a few other members here. We chatted about it awhile ago:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1104

Thanks for the tip!

[Eppi]

Hi All,

May I recommend "The Daughter of Time" by Josephine Tey.

Quite brilliant.

Regards,

Simon

"the daughter of time" is a very charming book,and as a gateway to Richard and the wars of the roses it has its use.As a serious work it dont hold water-not in my opinion anyway.In that respect sharon Key Penmans "the sunne in splendour"is much more thorough(And a bit more balanced as well).

[nugnug]

princes

can we be sure the princes were murdered i know they found 2 child skeltens but has it been proved they were the princes

[The Grave Maurice]

"the daughter of time"... dont hold water-not in my opinion anyway. In that respect sharon Key Penmans "the sunne in splendour" is much more thorough(And a bit more balanced as well).

Now you tell me. I recently purchased a first edition of Tey's book for more than many people (including my wife) would think prudent.

I hadn't heard of the Penman book, but I'll get a copy ASAP. Thanks for the tip, and I assume you already know that there are societies devoted to studying his history on both sides of the Atlantic.

[Steve S]

Even if......Richard planned his move for the throne..AND got Northumberland in on it........Still proves nothing about possible murders..........
Steve

[Rubyretro]

Now you tell me. I recently purchased a first edition of Tey's book for more than many people (including my wife) would think prudent.

I hadn't heard of the Penman book, but I'll get a copy ASAP. Thanks for the tip, and I assume you already know that there are societies devoted to studying his history on both sides of the Atlantic.

I love the Tey book -and it seems to make sense..

[Steve S]

I love the Tey book -and it seems to make sense..

Ditto............
Steve

[Ally]

Richard done it. The princes vanished well before his reign ended and were never seen again. They were under his "protection" and therefore he was responsible for their well-being. If someone else had killed them, he'd have made an example of them and if they were still alive when the rumors started circulating that he'd killed them, he could have produced them to end the rumors. They were "missing" at least a year prior to Henry VII taking the throne and the only logical conclusion is that Richard was complicit in their disappearance and since they could hardly be allowed to go free and foment another rebellion, the logical conclusion is that they were dead.

[Celesta]

Now you tell me. I recently purchased a first edition of Tey's book for more than many people (including my wife) would think prudent.

I hadn't heard of the Penman book, but I'll get a copy ASAP. Thanks for the tip, and I assume you already know that there are societies devoted to studying his history on both sides of the Atlantic.

I don't think you have much reason to regret purchasing Tey's books. It's quite a good book, published in 1951. As for Penman, her book is much more recent, so any new information or theories might not have been available to Josephine Tey. "The Daughter of Time" refers to history. History is the daughter of time, and I think Tey does a good job of illustrating that. It's a classic, Maurice. Give it a chance and I think you'll enjoy it.

[Eppi]

Richard done it. The princes vanished well before his reign ended and were never seen again. They were under his "protection" and therefore he was responsible for their well-being. If someone else had killed them, he'd have made an example of them and if they were still alive when the rumors started circulating that he'd killed them, he could have produced them to end the rumors. They were "missing" at least a year prior to Henry VII taking the throne and the only logical conclusion is that Richard was complicit in their disappearance and since they could hardly be allowed to go free and foment another rebellion, the logical conclusion is that they were dead.

Shortly after his coronation Buckingham rebelled(Richard,in a letter to bishop russel called him "The most untrue creature living") while Richard was on his royal progress.Buckingham was constable of England,he was in London,and had both motive and access.I dot believe Henry VII killed them.

Eppi

[Eppi]

I don't think you have much reason to regret purchasing Tey's books. It's quite a good book, published in 1951. As for Penman, her book is much more recent, so any new information or theories might not have been available to Josephine Tey. "The Daughter of Time" refers to history. History is the daughter of time, and I think Tey does a good job of illustrating that. It's a classic, Maurice. Give it a chance and I think you'll enjoy it.

As i mentioned earlier,Teys book is good gateway to this subject.She based her work on clements Marhams "Richard III-the man and the character",but todays scholars thinks it has little ,if anything to do with either.
Tey had acess to Mancinis work but chose to ignore it.

Eppi

[Eppi]

Even if......Richard planned his move for the throne..AND got Northumberland in on it........Still proves nothing about possible murders..........
Steve

Maybe not ,but it certainly goes a long way........


eppi