The Shroud Of Turin

[j.r-ahde]

Hello David!

And if I remember correctly, the one by John is supposed to have been written pretty much later than the others!

All the best
Jukka

[DVV]

Hi Jukka,

more interesting ?

Not sure.

Yesterday we were back to the 19th century, today it's the 18th...

As for the canonical gospels, it's worth noting that that of John has been somehow reluctantly accepted, as it seems.

The apocryphal texts mostly belong to the gnostic literature and are undoubtedly more recent than the 3 synoptic gospels.

Amitiés,
David

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

This conversation is getting even more interesting.

The thing making me wonder, is:

To my knowledge there were about 32 gospels, some possibly even by the disciples.

So; why these four are the official ones?! Why there isn't a gospel possibly written by a disciple in the Bible?!

All the best
Jukka

[Ally]

Every religion throughout time has brought death and destruction as part of its myth. Christianity is hardly unique or a rarity in that regard. As with all religions that view death as redemptive and something to be venerated, they can therefore see it as justified.

The worst of Christianity is the smothering of reason and scientific progress that was part of its campaign. Keep the peons ignorant and you keep control of them. It is not unlike what is occurring in some parts of the Islamic world today. However, we would probably be much further on in terms of progress if not for a campaign of unenlightment in the middle ages. Hundreds of years of scientific progress lost, heck, we could all have flying cars that ran on sunbeams by now. Religion in all its various forms has always been the opposite of reason.

[Magpie]

Really? When?

Actually way back when it was first "discovered" and put on display, the Vatican declared that it was a fabricated object and ordered the owners to stop advertising it as the burial cloth of Christ.

And although the Vatican is very coy about declaring it "real" today, the pomp and ceremony with which new exhibitions are announced and staged tells us a lot.

[DVV]

Believing in Christ doesn't mean approving the crimes of the past.

Atheist governments do kill as well.

And your atheism doesn't make you their accomplices.

Amitiés,
David

[Jonathan H]

Well said, Belinda.

[belinda]

Belinda seems to take great pride in her atheism. No doubt it makes her feel smart.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

No not a bit. Your Christianity seems to make you feel you are vastly superior to me and maybe you are but not because you believe in God.

I am an Atheist because I cannot find any good convincing reason to believe in the Gods of any religions.

Christianty does not have a lot to be proud of.It has spent 2000 years persecuting other people for their beliefs or lack of them. It has brought only death and destruction that I can see and I want no part of that

[The Good Michael]

To my knowledge, the Vatican has never claimed the Turin Shroud is the burial cloth of Jesus Christ. They have said it might be and that it might not be. Therefore, it can be venerated as a depiction of the Lord's suffering and death, but not more than that.

That's how I look at it as well. That's why he suggested leaving it to science to uncover the answers. JP II was pretty good guy, I think, or as much as it is possible for a Pope to be. I mean that politically speaking.

Mike

[Jonathan H]

I am just trying to be accurate and precise.

To my knowledge, the Vatican has never claimed the Turin Shroud is the burial cloth of Jesus Christ. They have said it might be and that it might not be. Therefore, it can be venerated as a depiction of the Lord's suffering and death, but not more than that.

Pope John Paul II was a very interesting person -- arguably a great person -- because, among other reasons, he could hold different and competing ideas in his head and still function. For example, that Charles Darwin was completely correct about evolution/natural selection AND that the Blessed Virgin is just as real, and spared his life from an assassin just as 'She' had foretold to peasant girls, at Fatima, decades before.

[The Good Michael]

Well, not exactly, but John Paul II said to leave it to the scientists to adequately decide answers to any questions, and that it wasn't a matter of faith. I translate that into something similar to his stance on evolution during Vatican II when he said it should be accepted. That was several years ago of course. The Vatican, despite all the negative one may suggest, at least has formally come to grips with accepting science while still keeping the faith. And, no, I am not a supporter of organized religion in any way, shape, or form.

Mike

[Jonathan H]

Really? When?

[The Good Michael]

Though not the Vatican, which has never claimed it is authentic.

Actually, they once claimed the opposite. But they are the anti-christ aren't they?

Mike

[Jonathan H]

I think the Shroud is both:

A remarkable artifact and a remarkable forgery.

Except that, ironically, in its own time it fooled nobody and bombed.

Whereas, it has bedazzled a number of people six hundred or so years later.

Though not the Vatican, which has never claimed it is authentic.

[Magpie]

While I think the Shroud is not the burial cloth of Jesus, I do have a problem with dismissing it as a "hoax", "fake" or "forgery".

Whatever it is, it's a remarkable artifact.