Cleveland Torso Murders (Kingsbury Run)

[sdreid]

This coming Sunday, May 3, is the 75th anniversary of the finding of the three headless victims in the boxcars at McKees Rocks, PA. Indications were that the victims were likely killed in Youngstown, OH during the previous December. Two of the victims were never identified but one man was James Nicholson, an individual described as a homosexual drifter. None of the heads were ever found.

[Batman]

This coming Sunday, May 3, is the 75th anniversary of the finding of the three headless victims in the boxcars at McKees Rocks, PA. Indications were that the victims were likely killed in Youngstown, OH during the previous December. Two of the victims were never identified but one man was James Nicholson, an individual described as a homosexual drifter. None of the heads were ever found.

I was interested in Elliot Ness and read Torso. Great book.

[RockySullivan]

Cca

Robert Robertson was found in a lumberyard Norris Brothers in 1950. I've alwyays thought the Butcher was the one sunbathing on the spot where they found the body, but now I realize it was probably Robertson. So who would have been watching him for weeks?

Now there is a poster who suggests chromated copper arsenate is the chemical the Butcher used. It's used for wood preservation. So the question is, could someone who worked in the lumberyard killed Robertson, maybe unable to resist one last kill after his "retirement"? I don't know anything about lumber, but could someone who worked at Norris Bros been aware of CCA while the police were unable to identify it in the mid 30's? Lastly, what is the relationship between lumber and the rail lines? I imagine lumber would be hauled by train back then from PA to OH yea?

[RockySullivan]

Does anybody else think the connection between the lumberyard and cca could be a clue? I'm reading the new book on the PA Torso murders, highly recommend it for anyone interested!

[Joshua Rogan]

Due to the copper content, CCA gives a distinctive green tinge to wood. Is there any evidence for that on the bodies? If I recall, some had a reddish brown look, but not green.

[RockySullivan]

Due to the copper content, CCA gives a distinctive green tinge to wood. Is there any evidence for that on the bodies? If I recall, some had a reddish brown look, but not green.

Hey, oh ok that's interesting! Does CCA turn the skin green or would it just burn the skin? There is no evidence for cca ont he bodies, it was just suggested by another poster as what the chemical found in the bucket was

[Joshua Rogan]

Well, I'm not an expert so I've really no idea what effects cca would have on a body. I would expect some green to be perceptible though, where the copper has oxidised if exposed to air.
If I'm right about the brown discolouration on the bodies (it's a long time since I read about the Kingsbury Run murders) then the obvious wood preservative is some sort of creosote. In fact, a quick google shows that the very name comes from the Greek for "meat preserver"...

[RockySullivan]

Well, I'm not an expert so I've really no idea what effects cca would have on a body. I would expect some green to be perceptible though, where the copper has oxidised if exposed to air.
If I'm right about the brown discolouration on the bodies (it's a long time since I read about the Kingsbury Run murders) then the obvious wood preservative is some sort of creosote. In fact, a quick google shows that the very name comes from the Greek for "meat preserver"...

Hey I think it was a red tinge but could be brown. The theory about CCA was because it was new in 1930s. They found a bucket of a chemical substance next to one of the bodies, but they could not identify what it was. Creosote was pretty popular by that time. I guess if CCA would leave a green color on the skin that would rule that out. I wonder what the chemical was, seems like a huge clue and someone should have been able to id the chemical

[Ginger]

Wood treated with chromated copper arsenate has that familiar pale green colour to it. While CCA is green, copper oxide is reddish brown or black, depending on the oxidation state. (The green or blue copper isn't the result of oxidation, but rather the result of salt formation, usually a carbonate or chloride salt, but in this case, an arsenate salt).

The real question here is whether CCA would react in such a way as to form red-brown cuprous oxide if left in contact with human skin. I can't say that it wouldn't.

The red flag for me is that copper's an easy metal to do a qualitative test for, and I'd expect a police chemist to have caught it if the body had been drenched in a copper compound.

[RockySullivan]

Wood treated with chromated copper arsenate has that familiar pale green colour to it. While CCA is green, copper oxide is reddish brown or black, depending on the oxidation state. (The green or blue copper isn't the result of oxidation, but rather the result of salt formation, usually a carbonate or chloride salt, but in this case, an arsenate salt).

The real question here is whether CCA would react in such a way as to form red-brown cuprous oxide if left in contact with human skin. I can't say that it wouldn't.

The red flag for me is that copper's an easy metal to do a qualitative test for, and I'd expect a police chemist to have caught it if the body had been drenched in a copper compound.

Is this the bucket or was there more than one?

"the bodies of two white men, both beheaded, lying in the weeds; both bodies were naked except that one of them had socks on. After an extensive search the heads of both men were found buried in separate places, one about 20 feet away from one of the bodies and the other head was buried about 75 feet away from the other body. Both men's penises had been severed from their bodies and were found near one of the heads. We also found an old blue coat; light cap and a blood stained union suit. Nearby was a metal bucket containing a small quantity of oil and a torch.
"It was apparent that oil, acid or some chemical was poured over one of the bodies as it was burnt to quite an extent; it was also evident that both bodies had been there several days as they had started to decompose."
Coroner Arthur J. Pearse described the one man eventually referred to Victim One, as "decapitated with one testicle missing. Skin tanned and leathery as from an acid. Dead from 7-10 days. Homicide by person or persons at present unknown. Death by decapitation, hemorrhage, and shock." He was estimated to be between 40 and 45 years old, approximately 5 feet 6 inches tall and weighing 165 pounds. His hair was dark brown.
Laboratory analysis of the skin of Victim One came back with the following results: "The skin of this victim had a reddish yellow color and was tough (hard) not unlike bacon rind. The skin was carefully washed in benzol, dried, and examined under the microscope. Nothing of importance, other than the hair follicles minus the hair, was noted. It appeared as though the hair had either been shaved or burned off. The skin itself was hard and tough, and very resistant to both acids and alkalis. Warm or hot water however caused it to swell and curl although no difference in texture resulted. It was finally decided that scorching would produce such a condition. This however on dead tissue only.
"Examination of the contents of the bucket disclosed evidence of crankcase drainings (oil), partially decomposed human blood, and considerable black straight hair (probably human). http://watchingrobertpickton88015.yu...s#.WKlEeYWcFPY

[RockySullivan]

See I had thought there was a bucket with a substance that could not be determined found near one of the bodies. I can't find any reference to it ona basic google search. This bucket above had oil in it, crankcase drainings...is this something everyone would have from their car or does it imply a mechanic? Still I am very perplexed because I was sure I read about a bucket with an unknown substance. Any Butcher experts here?