Meredith Kercher case

[Malkmus]

Rudy left not only a fingerprint and shoeprint, but feces in the toilet that nailed him very quickly. You have to realize that no one had implicated him until the the fingerprint and DNA evidence obviously pointed him out. Authorities would never have thought to apprehend him since his name never came up, until the fingerprint itself identified him and led to his capture weeks later (Not Amanda or Rapahelle's testimony which never mentioned him)

[John Hacker]

Hello John:

In the links that Caz provided it does have translated pages that judge Michelin wrote in his 106 page report and he was the judge that presided on Guede´s trial and reasoned that there was enough evidence there to bring Sollecito and Knox as well. He was also on the last hearing of Knox and Sollecito trial. Whole pages of his report were published in the Italian newspapers. The final part of his report will be published in March of next year. But a complete report of what has happened so far in the trial can be read in the Ministry of Justice website on this case.

If you read the link provided by Caz, you will also find that there is a British journalist who has read the entire report and written on one of the respected newspapers so maybe this is where you can read it. If I have time, I will re-read the link myself and try and make a note of this journalist and try and get the links about what he has written of the judges report.

I went back through the links and did not find translated pages, just TJ's spin on what they said. As they're clearly not an impartial source I'm not going to take their opinion without a whole lot of salt...

[John Hacker]

Hello John:

It would appear that you are right about that telephone record, maybe being a rumour. Although I had the impression that it was through this that the Italian police made the connection between Guede and the couple, Sollecito and Knox. If the telephone record was not the connection... how did the police know that Guede had been at the scene of the crime ? Since he didn´t live there to start with. Specially as Amanda had already incriminated another black man that wasn´t Guede.
Can you see what I mean ?

He left fingerprints all over the place and he had a criminal record, given that the DNA found didn't match Sollecito's they went for him like a shot. They got that one right.

[scarletpimpernel]

Hello John:

In the links that Caz provided it does have translated pages that judge Michelin wrote in his 106 page report and he was the judge that presided on Guede´s trial and reasoned that there was enough evidence there to bring Sollecito and Knox as well. He was also on the last hearing of Knox and Sollecito trial. Whole pages of his report were published in the Italian newspapers. The final part of his report will be published in March of next year. But a complete report of what has happened so far in the trial can be read in the Ministry of Justice website on this case.

If you read the link provided by Caz, you will also find that there is a British journalist who has read the entire report and written on one of the respected newspapers so maybe this is where you can read it. If I have time, I will re-read the link myself and try and make a note of this journalist and try and get the links about what he has written of the judges report.

[Archaic]

Hearsay

Excellent work, John.

As regards the lingerie store incident, yes, Amanda was locked out of her residence by the police and was not permitted to take her personal items. Her other clothes are back home at her parents' house 5,500 miles away. She's a college student and has to attend class. Obviously she had to go shopping in order to replace a number of necessary items.

The clerk who claimed to hear Amanda & Raffaele talking about their plans to "have wild sex" has absolutely no evidence to back this up. Such a claim would not be admitted or even mentioned in an American court-room, because it is blatant 'Hearsay'. In other words, NOT evidence.

Obviously, anybody can make up anything.

>> It would be very interesting to know if the Italian tabloids paid this clerk for his sensational story.

Best regards, Archaic

[scarletpimpernel]

Hello John:

It would appear that you are right about that telephone record, maybe being a rumour. Although I had the impression that it was through this that the Italian police made the connection between Guede and the couple, Sollecito and Knox. If the telephone record was not the connection... how did the police know that Guede had been at the scene of the crime ? Since he didn´t live there to start with. Specially as Amanda had already incriminated another black man that wasn´t Guede.
Can you see what I mean ?

[John Hacker]

John Hacker,

The Ministry of Justice in Rome posted -the entire Micheleti report- on their website. Many thousands of Italian speakers have been to that website and read the report in full.

The U.K. and U.S. mainstream media pretty much ignored the Micheleti report.
Even today. Few American journalists seem to realize that the report even exists.

Quite a few papers covered the report in fair detail when it came out and it certainly was enlightening. It's not particularly relevent of course, because Knox and Sollecito were not on trial there. It did have a few things that certainly made me take notice though:

• He felt that there was more than one attacker based on the number of wounds (I have to wonder if this was his first criminal trial)
  He felt that all 3 were involved and that the crime was not-premeditated (Even given the weight that the prosecution gave to the cell phones turned off hours before the crime and the fact that the alleged murder weapon came from Sollecitos flat)

While the whole thing hasn't been translated into English so I've not read it in detail, little things like that certainly raised an eyebrow.

The article I also read in the Independent On Sunday 6th of December 2009.
Page 11. by Greg Walton lists a summary of the prosecution case like follows.

Let's take this point by point....

* The discovery of a kitchen knife with Knox's DNA on the handle and Meredith Kercher's on the tip, implicated her in the killing.

A knife that was arbitrarily selected out of a drawer full of knives based on "instinct". It had no markings or stains that would have called attention to it. The sample of what was allegedly Kercher's DNA was of too low a count to allow for reliable testing. An open letter signed by 9 DNA experts stated that in the US, testing wouldn't even have occurred on a sample that bad.

* Knox's statement to police placed her at the scene of the crime the night that Meredith Kercher was killed.

A statement given after 50 hours of questioning over a 5 day period in a foriegn country where she had minimal language skills at the time. I'm surprised it took that long for them to get to hear what they wanted to hear.

* Positioning of genetic material on the knife, suggested it had been used to puncture skin and was not the result of normal domestic use.

What sort of normal domestic use gets DNA on the tip?

* PHONE RECORDS SHOW KNOX SPOKE TO RUDY GUEDE " SEVERAL TIMES" BEFORE AND AFTER THE MURDER. Guede was sentenced to 30 years in jail for his role in the killing in 2008.

As has been pointed out numerous times on this thread, there weren't any calls between them. There were rumors to that extent at the beginning, but nothing was ever introduced into evidence on it and even TJ.org has stopped repeating that one.

IT DID NOT HAPPEN.

* Knox and co-accused Raffaele Sollecito faked a burglary by breaking a window.

That's not evidence. That's what we call a conclusion. And it's not one that's supported by the facts. The argument that a ten pound rock was too heavy to throw 13 feet is absurd. The side of the window that glass falls on depends on many factors and isn't a realiable indicator of what side it was hit from.

And most significantly, the one person we can put in the room with Kercher is Guede. And he's got a history of burglery and entry by (Gasp!) breaking windows.

* Knox was alleged to have purchased lingerie and other items shortly after the death and reportedly performed gymnastics while waiting to be questions by investigators.

Buying underwear when you've been locked out of your flat by the police is the NORMAL THING TO DO. I can't help but think that the people who find significance in her doing so would point to her dirty underwear as proof of guilt had she not. In any case, it wasn't offered as evidence.

As far as gymnastics? Yes, not reportedly, she did turn a cartwheel at the police station.

* She was overheard having an explicit conversation about having " Wild Sex" with Sollecito shortly after the incident and was seen on CCTV kissing him.

I love this one. I really do. Yes, they were kissing. As far as the "wild sex" goes, it sure made the tabloid rounds. But very few carried a follow up when it turned out that the conversation that she was having with Sollecito was in English. A language that the clerk did not speak or understand. Not offered as evidence obviously.

I am curious though. Let's pretend it was true. How long after a roommate is murdered is one supposed to abstain from sex if you're innocent? 3 days? A week? A month? Should she enter a convent?

Sex after a stressful incident is a typical reaction. Many people take refuge in it. I can certainly imagine wanting closeness after such a thing happening.

* She initially blamed a Congolese barman, Patrick Lumumba, for the death but he later proved his innocence.

Yes, in the interrogation I covered earlier. Stress or not that was inexcusible and she should be punished for the damaged caused to Lamumba. Absolutely.

By Greg Walton from The Independent On Sunday 6th of December page 11 on NEWS.

Greg really needs a refresher on what evidence is and probably should stop doing his research in the tabloids...

John, above Caz has posted long excerpts of the Micheleti report. Micheleti was the Judge who made this thorough and authoritative document, he presided on the Guede Trial and if you read the links that Caz had provided above you will find how the judges reasoned his sentencing report.

I looked through Caz's links that there were no excerpts. Just some creative interpretation from our friends at TJ. If anyone can provide a link to a translated copy I'd love to read it, but as I indicated above, I find his reasoning to be more than a little suspect and as he wasn't trying Knox or Sollecito, not hugely relevent.

Caz,

I haven't forgotten your post :-) But Scarlet's was quicker to deal with and since there's overlap there will be less to sort out in yours.

Peace.

[Ally]

[QUOTE=scarletpimpernel;109848]Ally,

It is more complicated than that.

No, it's not. Things are either factual or not factual. You provide a lot of non-factual evidence.

Read the Micheli Report, excerpts posted by Caz above. If you are serious about knowing how the judge who presided on Guede's trial arrived at his conclusions... you only have to read the links kindly provided by Caz above.

The vast majority of the links provided by Caz above are to a bias and propaganda slander-fest that have been against Knox from day one. They gossip, slander and distort and they aren't interested in the truth at all. They are interested in promoting their agenda.

Much of what is claimed is out and out NOT factual and disproven, but who cares? The Italian public and media made up their mind a long time ago, and god know facts have never been sufficient to change the minds of believers.

It just seems to me, that you are just asking Caz to provide this or that without you NOT even bothering to read any of it. Until you do, you will finally begin to understand why the jury quite rightly arrived at this convinction sentence on the three murderers and believe you me, when I tell you, it will be the same verdic when the appeals come here in October.

It just seems to me you are making **** up again, your usual MO. First I haven't asked Caz to provide anything. Second, I will bother to read those parts of it that are FACTUAL. I will not wade my way through disproven lies just because you people still want to cling to it as "evidence" even though it's long since been disproven.

[scarletpimpernel]

The fact that Guede only changed his story to implicate Knox after he went on appeal and its implications has been pointed out to ScarPimp before. As well as the fact that the phone calls he keeps saying happened never did.

But he is not one who lets facts get in the way of his arguments.

Ally,

It is more complicated than that.

Read the Micheli Report, excerpts posted by Caz above. If you are serious about knowing how the judge who presided on Guede's trial arrived at his conclusions... you only have to read the links kindly provided by Caz above.

It just seems to me, that you are just asking Caz to provide this or that without you NOT even bothering to read any of it. Until you do, you will finally begin to understand why the jury quite rightly arrived at this convinction sentence on the three murderers and believe you me, when I tell you, it will be the same verdic when the appeals come here in October.

[scarletpimpernel]

The Micheleti Report

John Hacker,

The Ministry of Justice in Rome posted -the entire Micheleti report- on their website. Many thousands of Italian speakers have been to that website and read the report in full.

The U.K. and U.S. mainstream media pretty much ignored the Micheleti report.
Even today. Few American journalists seem to realize that the report even exists.

The article I also read in the Independent On Sunday 6th of December 2009.
Page 11. by Greg Walton lists a summary of the prosecution case like follows.

* The discovery of a kitchen knife with Knox's DNA on the handle and Meredith Kercher's on the tip, implicated her in the killing.

* Knox's statement to police placed her at the scene of the crime the night that Meredith Kercher was killed.

* Positioning of genetic material on the knife, suggested it had been used to puncture skin and was not the result of normal domestic use.

* PHONE RECORDS SHOW KNOX SPOKE TO RUDY GUEDE " SEVERAL TIMES"
BEFORE AND AFTER THE MURDER. Guede was sentenced to 30 years in jail for his role in the killing in 2008.

* Knox and co-accused Raffaele Sollecito faked a burglary by breaking a window.

* Knox was alleged to have purchased lingerie and other items shortly after the death and reportedly performed gymnastics while waiting to be questions by investigators.

* She was overheard having an explicit conversation about having " Wild Sex" with Sollecito shortly after the incident and was seen on CCTV kissing him.

* She initially blamed a Congolese barman, Patrick Lumumba, for the death but he later proved his innocence.

By Greg Walton from The Independent On Sunday 6th of December page 11 on NEWS.

John, above Caz has posted long excerpts of the Micheleti report. Micheleti was the Judge who made this thorough and authoritative document, he presided on the Guede Trial and if you read the links that Caz had provided above you will find how the judges reasoned his sentencing report.

[John Hacker]

"Independently" verified by a CBS documentary, relatives of Amanda Knox, or her defense team.

I know it's a shocking concept, but the defense is allowed to rebutt evidence. Ideally I'd like to see transcripts, but until they're available I'll look at as many sources I can. Even ones without any credibility whatsoever like "truejustice" and Migini.

[jason_c]

Guede at his trial claimed to be innocently in the bathroom while the killing occured and that there were 2 people present who fled when he came out. Recently, at appeal, he specifically named Knox.

The phone calls are off a site called "truejustice.org" that specializes in anti-Knox/Sollecito rumors. A lot of what has been cited as evidence in this thread comes from there and a lot of it simply isn't true. It's not a bad source to use as a starting point, because they do collect a lot of links. But anything seen there needs to be independently verified because they're not bothered with accuracy if it makes the defendents look bad and they wear their bias like a badge of honor.

"Independently" verified by a CBS documentary, relatives of Amanda Knox, or her defense team.

[cappuccina]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-547048/Foxy-Knoxy-Meredith-murder-scene-says-suspect.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3629353.ece

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/rudy-guede-amanda-knox-leave-murder-scene/story?id=9117060

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5033760.ece

...and many, many more...

[John Hacker]

Care to share where you got this information? Rudy changed his story several times, the first version of which did not include Amanda and Rapahaelle. He has been found guilty and is appealing, so he most certainly has not confessed.

And where on Earth did you hear about these phone calls between Rudy and the other two? Or being their drug pusher? Because, frankly, you're the first person I've seen anywhere to ever mention this.

Guede at his trial claimed to be innocently in the bathroom while the killing occured and that there were 2 people present who fled when he came out. Recently, at appeal, he specifically named Knox.

The phone calls are off a site called "truejustice.org" that specializes in anti-Knox/Sollecito rumors. A lot of what has been cited as evidence in this thread comes from there and a lot of it simply isn't true. It's not a bad source to use as a starting point, because they do collect a lot of links. But anything seen there needs to be independently verified because they're not bothered with accuracy if it makes the defendents look bad and they wear their bias like a badge of honor.

[Ally]

Care to share where you got this information? Rudy changed his story several times, the first version of which did not include Amanda and Rapahaelle. He has been found guilty and is appealing, so he most certainly has not confessed.

And where on Earth did you hear about these phone calls between Rudy and the other two? Or being their drug pusher? Because, frankly, you're the first person I've seen anywhere to ever mention this.

The fact that Guede only changed his story to implicate Knox after he went on appeal and its implications has been pointed out to ScarPimp before. As well as the fact that the phone calls he keeps saying happened never did.

But he is not one who lets facts get in the way of his arguments.