Meredith Kercher case

[Archaic]

Second, if the prosecution is to be believed the cleanup was extremely efficient and remarkably inept.

The two marks they attribute as being Knox and Sollecito's foot prints were on respecitvely, a pillow case and a bath mat.

Those would have been easy to simply remove from the scene.

BINGO!!!

John, I now suspect that either you are a lawyer, or you are a criminal mastermind.

Which one is it?

Best regards, Archaic

[John Hacker]

And because there was no intention on cleaning Guede's DNA in Meredith room, the judge concluded that there was every intent from Sollecito and Knox to make sure only Guede was suspected and charged with the crime.

Can you provde an actual citation for that? Because if that's true it's the stupidist thing said yet in this case and that's really saying something.

First off, if that were true, what guarantee would they have he wouldn't just implicate them?

Second, if the prosecution is to be believed the cleanup was extremely efficient and remarkably inept. The two marks they attribute as being Knox and Sollecito's foot prints were on respecitvely, a pillow case and a bath mat. Those would have been easy to simply remove from the scene.

Third, HOW ON EARTH could they do that? DNA is NOT visible. There's no possible way for them to go around the room and say "Ok, this is my DNA and finger prints, better clean that up. Those are Guede's, screw him...."

There was no indication of a cleanup in the murder room. No traces of bleach, nothing.

The judge also noticed that the UPSTAIRS window was broken to make it look like an intruder had been in the cottage when the easiest thing for an intruder would have been to brake in the DOWNSTAIRS window where he wouldn't be seen by passing cars.

Which would NOT have given him access to the flat. The floors had no interior connection. He would have been breaking into an entirely different living space and if earlier reports that Guede had association with the people living there, he would have been robbing friends. (This judge is a real wizard)

A floorplan can be found here: http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/1006.pdf

Couple with the fact that Sollecito when asked if he had spent the night with Knox his reply was: " I don't remember " Did you spend the night with your girl-friend ? A yes or no answer was required but instead he said he didn't remember, so Knox effectively didn't have an alibi for the night of the crime.

They gave the same story after the one the police got out of Knox fell apart. Not a good alibi, but it's as good as most people can manage who aren't out on the town with witnesses.

No Ally those are not lies. Knox and Sollecito's DNA were both found on Meredith's bra when they attempted to cut her bra from her and moved her body, that was established by forensic experts, not by the police. Also, both, Sollecito's and Knox's bloody foot-prints were found by luminol when there had been a clear intention of cleaning them off.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that they aren't intentional lies, but it is inaccurate.

Knox's DNA was not found ANYWHERE in the room where the murder took place.

The DNA evidence in regards to Knox/Sollecito was:

1) The bra clasp, collected 47 days after the crime was found to have trace amounts of Sollecito's DNA. None of Knox. In the time between the crime and collection it can be seen that the clasp has moved around the floor. Additionally the collection video above showing the clasp being bagged really shows just how much of "forensic experts" these guys weren't.

2) The knife picked out of a drawer by the police at Sollecito's flat with what they say was Knox's DNA on the handle and Kercher's near the tip. The sample attributed to the victim was of too low of a count for a reliable test and was destroyed in the process so no independent checking was possible.

3) 5 samples of Kercher's blood from various places around the apartment which when tested also contained traces of Knox's DNA. 3 from the bathroom, one from the hall and one from Filomena's room. NONE was found in Kercher's room. These are essentially meaningless as Knox's DNA would be all over the place. She lived there and DNA can not be dated.

That's all there was.

It was Meredith Kercher room yes, but Knox and Sollecito's DNA was found in her room too. Knox's testimony that Meredith locked her room even when she took a shower was contradicted by Filomena the other student living at the cottage with them. In fact, she also said that Meredith was upset and angry that 300 Euros had been taken from her room. She also said that tensions had gone to boiling point between Meredith and Knox over rent money.

Er. No.

The rent money story comes from Guede who testified he was hanging out with Kercher prior to sex when she discovered money missing and he tried to "console" her. There was no testimony at trial from Filomena regarding "rent money".

"Whilst he was having a drink of fruit juice from the fridge, he claims Meredith found that 300 euros (her rent money) was missing from her bedside cabinet. Meredith was naturally upset by this discovery and straight away blamed “druggy Amanda”. Rudy said they both checked Amanda’s room to see if the money was there. However, it couldn’t be found and Rudy sought to console her. "

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/understanding_micheli_1_why_he_rejected_rudy_guedes_explanations_as_fiction/

(I hate linking to these folks, but their translation is fairly close to what Google came up with on the raw doc)

John, the police didn't picked up a knife from a drawer. It is well known that Sollecito had a knife collection at his place and Sollecito's father talked to the press saying he didn't see anything wrong about his son having a knife collection. This is why the police went to Sollecito's place where they picked up the knife from his knife collection with the incriminating DNA.

Again, no. It was collected from a drawer in the kitchen while other knives were ignored. He may have had a knife collection, but this was just a standard kitchen knife.

There are many news reports about the collection of the knife, here's one of 'em.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1234298/Amanda-Knox-The-troubling-doubts-Foxy-Knoxys-role-Meredith-Kerchers-murder.html

I am curious where you're getting your information Scarlet. The web is full of misinformation about the case, but it's been a very long time since I've seen the DNA evidence reported inaccurately.

[scarletpimpernel]

Are you serious?

It was Kercher's room. Knox's DNA was in the common areas. No reports suggested that she was close enough to Kercher to have been spending time in Kercher's room when it's known she liked her privacy.

And I would LOVE for someone to explain how the police psychically picked a knife from a drawer and took and only tested the right one. Surely if there was any reason to take knifes for testing you'd grab the lot. Maybe it's a cultural thing, but I like my investigations based more on evidence than "instinct".

Hello John

It was Meredith Kercher room yes, but Knox and Sollecito's DNA was found in her room too. Knox's testimony that Meredith locked her room even when she took a shower was contradicted by Filomena the other student living at the cottage with them. In fact, she also said that Meredith was upset and angry that 300 Euros had been taken from her room. She also said that tensions had gone to boiling point between Meredith and Knox over rent money.

John, the police didn't picked up a knife from a drawer. It is well known that Sollecito had a knife collection at his place and Sollecito's father talked to the press saying he didn't see anything wrong about his son having a knife collection. This is why the police went to Sollecito's place where they picked up the knife from his knife collection with the incriminating DNA.

[scarletpimpernel]

There's Scarlett telling lies again. Knox and Sollecitos DNA were NOT found at the murder scene. He really believes if he says it often enough it will become true, doesn't he?

I am not entirely sure if he is just piss ignorant and cannot read and absorb facts or if he's just willfully blind. He reminds me of a little kid sticking his fingers in his ears and shouting NO! NO! NO! It's true ! The national enquirer told me so!

No Ally those are not lies. Knox and Sollecito's DNA were both found on Meredith's bra when they attempted to cut her bra from her and moved her body, that was established by forensic experts, not by the police. Also, both, Sollecito's and Knox's bloody foot-prints were found by luminol when there had been a clear intention of cleaning them off.

[scarletpimpernel]

Hello John

And because there was no intention on cleaning Guede's DNA in Meredith room, the judge concluded that there was every intent from Sollecito and Knox to make sure only Guede was suspected and charged with the crime.

The judge also noticed that the UPSTAIRS window was broken to make it look like an intruder had been in the cottage when the easiest thing for an intruder would have been to brake in the DOWNSTAIRS window where he wouldn't be seen by passing cars.

Couple with the fact that Sollecito when asked if he had spent the night with Knox his reply was: " I don't remember " Did you spend the night with your girl-friend ? A yes or no answer was required but instead he said he didn't remember, so Knox effectively didn't have an alibi for the night of the crime.

[John Hacker]

P.S. I agree with Ally. "A cleanup attempt gone WRONG?"

How on earth would ANYONE obliterate their DNA from an entire room? LEAVING the DNA of another suspect. How would that happen?

DNA is a remarkably resiliant molecule. It has to be. There aren't many ways to get rid of it and the one that IS easily available (bleach) wasn't used in the room.

[John Hacker]

John Hacker

Its strange that we have Solliceto's DNA in Kercher's room but not any from Knox. As you said, Knox lived there. A clean up operation gone wrong is more plausible than contamination. I read that the DNA on the bra strap was substantial enough to be unlikely from contamination.

The only other DNA from Solliceto found at the cottage was on a cigarette butt, its not as if the place was swarming with his DNA. And note that no DNA from investigators was found on the bra strap.

Solliceto's DNA on Kerchers bra strap, and Kercher's DNA on the blade of a knife in Sollicetos flat. That in itself is strong evidence.

Are you serious?

It was Kercher's room. Knox's DNA was in the common areas. No reports suggested that she was close enough to Kercher to have been spending time in Kercher's room when it's known she liked her privacy.

As far as the DNA on the clasp and knife goes, that's been discussed at length and if you want to believe it's strong evidence that's up to you.

But can you defend the handling of the evidence (as shown in a video linked above) with a straight face? If you're goign to test soemthing for DNA you pick it up with a sterile instrument and bag it. You don't pick it up, hand it around, put it down again and THEN pick it up and bag it.

And I would LOVE for someone to explain how the police psychically picked a knife from a drawer and took and only tested the right one. Surely if there was any reason to take knifes for testing you'd grab the lot. Maybe it's a cultural thing, but I like my investigations based more on evidence than "instinct".

[John Hacker]

Thank you Scarlet & John for helping to answer my question.

John, I just read the news-link you posted, and this sentence really caught my attention:

Another witness said Guede pulled a knife on him when he caught Guede in his house rummaging through his things.

Wow.

I wonder if Guede thought no one was home at the cottage & managed to get in quietly, perhaps by picking the lock or something. Meredith had gone home because she was tired, so maybe she was asleep and woke to find an intruder- Guede- in the house.

Perhaps Guede didn't enter the cottage with the pre-meditated intent of violently attacking any of the female residents, but instead spontaneously attacked Meredith because she woke up and recognized him?

Guede sounds like a very poor planner as burglars go, but perhaps immediately after leaving the cottage he went to the disco in an attempt to provide himself with an alibi because he knew he had left Meredith either dead or dying?

Once he had made sure he was seen at the disco, Guede fled to Germany with the money he had stolen.

That makes sense to me and appears to fit perfectly with Guede's past behaviors.

Any thoughts?

Thanks & best regards, Archaic

Well, Guede's MO was to break windows to gain entry. So I doubt he was much for lock picking.

In a completely speculative sense tho...

Kercher arrived home sometime around 9:15-9:30 and shortly started a call with her mother. The original police timeline (it was altered mid trial to accomodate a late arriving witness who hear "screams") put the time of death at 10:00-10:30.

The thing that makes the most sense to me is Guede breaking a window prior to Kercher's arriving home. He prowls the house looking for valuables. She arrives and he lies low while the call goes on. At some point he discovered and we have an assault and a murder. And as you pointed out, Guede is known to carry a knife which was never found when he was arrested.

(One interesting thing to me is the bizzare empahsis on Kercher not having DNA under her nails. Her parents keep going back to that and saying she knew Karate and would have fought. Clawing and scratching isn't part of Karate as it is traditionally practiced.)

But once Guede has managed to make a killer of himself, he cleans up the hard surfaces which take prints. Including rooms where Knox or Sollecito would have no reason to cover up their presence there, takes the money, leaves tracable possesions and botls. Making sure to show up in public later as an alibi.

Pure speculation.

But it's consistent with the physical evidence AND the history of the defendent. Unlike the fantasy the prosecution spun.

One of the sadder aspects of the whole thing is that Guede's criminal activities were known. He'd been identified to police, and even picked up carrying stolen goods. And the police let him go on more than one occasion.

Perhaps it's not so suprising that the needed a mastermind to shift the focus to.

[Ally]

A cleanup attempt gone WRONG? Are you kidding me? A clean up attempt that managed to remove all trace of themselves from the murder room and the body except for one small sample left on the bra strap while simultaneously leaving the DNA of another person undisturbed on the body? That's not a clean up attempt gone wrong--if accurate it's the best clean up job in the history of clean up jobs!

They've perfected a technique to remove all trace of themselves from the crime scene while leaving someone else's to point the finger at! Criminals will be lining up to pay them for the patent for that technique.

[jason_c]

"The only DNA from either of them that was found at the "scene" of the murder was the sample attributed to Sollecito on the bra clasp. It was not collected for 45 days and was moved around the floor prior to its collection. It's collection involved being handed around, picked up, put down etc before it was bagged so it's got zero evidentiary value IMO".

"Knox's DNA was found at various points in the flat, however NOT in the room where Kercher was killed. Which is hardly suprising, SHE LIVED THERE. Of course her DNA will be there."

John Hacker

Its strange that we have Solliceto's DNA in Kercher's room but not any from Knox. As you said, Knox lived there. A clean up operation gone wrong is more plausible than contamination. I read that the DNA on the bra strap was substantial enough to be unlikely from contamination.

The only other DNA from Solliceto found at the cottage was on a cigarette butt, its not as if the place was swarming with his DNA. And note that no DNA from investigators was found on the bra strap.

Solliceto's DNA on Kerchers bra strap, and Kercher's DNA on the blade of a knife in Sollicetos flat. That in itself is strong evidence.

[Archaic]

Maybe Guede Botched His Intended Burglary?

Thank you Scarlet & John for helping to answer my question.

John, I just read the news-link you posted, and this sentence really caught my attention:

Another witness said Guede pulled a knife on him when he caught Guede in his house rummaging through his things.

Wow.

I wonder if Guede thought no one was home at the cottage & managed to get in quietly, perhaps by picking the lock or something. Meredith had gone home because she was tired, so maybe she was asleep and woke to find an intruder- Guede- in the house.

Perhaps Guede didn't enter the cottage with the pre-meditated intent of violently attacking any of the female residents, but instead spontaneously attacked Meredith because she woke up and recognized him?

Guede sounds like a very poor planner as burglars go, but perhaps immediately after leaving the cottage he went to the disco in an attempt to provide himself with an alibi because he knew he had left Meredith either dead or dying?

Once he had made sure he was seen at the disco, Guede fled to Germany with the money he had stolen.

That makes sense to me and appears to fit perfectly with Guede's past behaviors.

Any thoughts?

Thanks & best regards, Archaic

[John Hacker]

Heya Archiac,

Found a reference for ya:

"Finally, Riccaro Luciani, one of the students who lived in the apartment below Knox and Kercher, said that the relationship between his roommate, Giacomo Silenzi, and Kercher was "simple and had just begun."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7995762&page=3

[John Hacker]

No. It wasn't a flat but a cottage in the hills with two floors and there were two other female students living there with Meredith and Ms. Knox.

Already covered in the previous post.

These other two students had cast-iron alibies. Where Ms. Knox didn't have an alibi. She said she spent the night at her boyfriend's place but her boyfriend Sollecito didn't corroborate her story.

Yes, he did. The story they stood by was that they were at his place smoking marijuana, having sex and watching movies downloaded from the internet. There might have been corroborating evidence on the computer, however they were compromised when the police decided to watch a film on it before turning it over to an expert who managed to systamatically destroy THREE hard drives in the course of his investigation. Sterling work.

So that begs the question if Ms. Knox was not with her boyfriend where did she spent the night of the murder ? As Sollecito's and Knox's DNA were found at the scene of the murder we can conclude where they were.

The only DNA from either of them that was found at the "scene" of the murder was the sample attributed to Sollecito on the bra clasp. It was not collected for 45 days and was moved around the floor prior to its collection. It's collection involved being handed around, picked up, put down etc before it was bagged so it's got zero evidentiary value IMO.

Knox's DNA was found at various points in the flat, however NOT in the room where Kercher was killed. Which is hardly suprising, SHE LIVED THERE. Of course her DNA will be there.

Pretty straightforward stuff.

[John Hacker]

Heya Archaic,

I remember reading that there were boys living downstairs and that Guede was an occasional visitor to them, but I don't remember offhand that any of them were the boyfriend of anyone in Kercher's flat.

Scarlett is right that it was a 2 floor cottage, but floor plans of the area that Kercher and Knox lived in is a single floor dwelling with no stairs and an external exit. It's clear that the building itself does have 2 floors and as it's built into the hill I would guess that the lower level also had direct external access, but on the opposite side of the building which would be ground level for it. There doesn't appear to be any internal connection between the areas.

Peace.

[Ally]

There's Scarlett telling lies again. Knox and Sollecitos DNA were NOT found at the murder scene. He really believes if he says it often enough it will become true, doesn't he?

I am not entirely sure if he is just piss ignorant and cannot read and absorb facts or if he's just willfully blind. He reminds me of a little kid sticking his fingers in his ears and shouting NO! NO! NO! It's true ! The national enquirer told me so!