Meredith Kercher case

[John Hacker]

I'd like to see the summary of the "evidence" against her as well. It certainly shouldn't take long to type up. After you remove the wild speculation and bizarre theorizing there's not much there.

[AdamWalsh]

I visited Croydon Cemetery the other day in an attempt to find Merediths grave - but no luck. Will try again, the place is massive.

Anyway - found a great article by a forensic engineer explaining what he believes was the true course of events. (Some crime scene images - not for those that dont like blood).

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/december042010/amanda-know.php

[caz]

This is horrendous if two innocent people have been locked up in addition to the guilty man.

What I don't understand, however, is why a couple of innocent sweethearts failed to give a straight and consistent account of their movements that night (including why Meredith happened to be alone when her attacker chose to break in) and apparently both turned off their phones.

If true, it would not of course be evidence that they were involved in any way with the crime, but it certainly didn't help them, did it? Clearly they were let down by being unable to put up a good enough defence to show reasonable doubt. Let's hope the appeal will help to reveal the truth at last, whatever that may be.

Love,

Caz
X

[Celesta]

After reading Douglas Preston's and Mario Spezi's The Monster of Florence, about how the Italian system mishandled that serial killer case, I haven't had a lot of trouble visualizing that they did the same with the Kercher case, as well. It seemed they put half of Tuscany on trial in the Monster case and still no one knows who killed all those couples.

[John Hacker]

What I don't understand, however, is why a couple of innocent sweethearts failed to give a straight and consistent account of their movements that night (including why Meredith happened to be alone when her attacker chose to break in) and apparently both turned off their phones.

With all due respect Caz, I don't believe that for a second. You've been following the JtR case long enough to know better. That even innocent people under pressure from the police will lie to put themselves in the best light is hardly rare. Interrogations such as the one Knox underwent, in a foreign country over such a long period of time, however are. (Odd that it wasn't recorded. In violation of Italian law)

It strikes me as odd that those who want to defend (or keep in play) the conviction always leap towards their behavior and inconsistent stories as the reason for doing so. (Ok, upon reflection it doesn't... the actual evidence is pretty thin to be generous) A free pass to the prosecution is always given for the same sin. Over time the narrative for the supposed 3 way killing has changed far more times then Knox or Sollecito's story ever did...

We had:

The marijuana fueled orgy story. Apparently they don't have a lot of experience with it in Italy or they'd know better. If the body were covered in Frito crumbs I might buy it.... But let's soldier on....

The missing rent money story.

The "Amanda was Jealous of Meredith's Goodness" narrative.

The dark ritual theory...

Sollecito's taste in vampire manga...

Etc...

Frankly it would be pitiful if it wasn't so sad. But let's address your main point....

Why would they give inconsistent stories to the police? (Obviously outside of the normal reasons of being pressured by police) They were cheating on each other? They were involved in illegal activities outside of murder? (Such as buying/using/selling marijuanna) There are plenty of options besides covering up for a murder that they apparently did flawlessly at the forensic level.

Just to straighten out one point though... It was never established that their phones were turned off. Just that no texts or calls were sent or received over a period of time. The entire suggestion that the phones were off was based on a single text that Sollecito received the next day that his father supposedly sent the night before. Which could be that the phone was off, that the signal was weak, that his phone wasn't working well, etc... To go from "a text arrived late on one phone" to "their phones were turned off" is a flight of fancy.

You are however right in a sense. They were hampered by the inability of the defense to prove a reasonable doubt to the court. The sentencing report of the court makes it quite clear why. In the US of course they would never have had to put on a case because the judge would have dismissed it after the prosecution failed to meet their burden of proof. But given the deference to the prosecution that the lower courts showed to the prosecution there really wasn't much hope of acquittal.

No matter what the court finds however I think we can rule out any chance that the "truth will be revealed". Either the reasonable doubt that was already there will be found, or the court will buy in to the prosecutions argument again.

If reasonable doubt is found the guilty crowd will scream "She did cartwheels! WAH!" If the verdict is upheld the innocent crowd will shake their head at the evidence handling and bizarre prosecution theories.

The truth will likely never be known. But without serious evidence against anyone but Guede we're looking at a case where guilt has not and cannot be established. The entire evidential record suggestion a burglary gone wrong with a sexual assault. They've got a known burglar in custody with his DNA all over the body.

Guilt beyond a reasonable doubt has not been established. Not has guilt with a reasonable plausibility. The only responsible option is to let Sollecito and Knox go and those who want to believe they're guilty can imagine them twirling their black moustaches as they slink out to commit more horrible crimes. (Hopefully leaving some form of evidence next time)

Peace.

[caz]

A bit of an overreaction, John, considering how my post was worded, don't you think?

Was I wrong to describe it as 'horrendous' if two innocent people have been locked up in addition to the guilty man?

Was I wrong to point out, as you have, that a failure to give straight and consistent accounts (for whatever reasons), plus the suggestion (whether valid or not) of their phones being turned off for the night and on again in the morning, did not amount to evidence of their involvement in murder, but didn't help their defence team to show reasonable doubt?

Was I wrong to 'hope' that the appeal will help to reveal the truth, even if you think it's a forlorn one?

The only thing I would add is that if one is aware that one could be wrongly charged with murder in a dirty Johnny foreigner country where the legal system may not be as totally wonderful, fair and trustworthy as it is in one's own country, it pays one to come up with a decent alibi, even if it means owning up to lesser 'sins', and not to rock the boat but to play the game their way, or risk being locked up for a very long time.

Life is not fair, John, wherever we live or wherever one chooses to travel. And as we have seen, one's behaviour can have some terribly unfair consequences. But prevention is always better than cure, and the lesson may have been learned too late by Miss Knox and her Italian chap.

Love,

Caz
X

[Ally]

Knox appeal verdict coming down within the hour. Any bets?

[Ally]

Acquitted of murder, upheld on defamation. They said 3 years but I presume time served will apply.

[tji]

Acquitted of murder, upheld on defamation. They said 3 years but I presume time served will apply.

Apparently she will be flown straight out of the country tonight...a free woman.

Tj

[Zodiac]

RIP Meredith. Some of us will not forget the actual victim of this awful crime, not to mention the subsequent media circus.

Zodiac.

[mariab]

I don't believe for a second that Knox and her boyfriend were involved in the murder. It was clearly the African guy they arrested from the start. A couple weeks ago I was talking about the case with some Italian colleagues during a conference in Tuscany, and the majority of them, in their late 40s, said they believe at 50% that Knox is guilty!!
The Italian justice system is a bitch and a huge joke, and I speak from experience, as my American boss has been involved in several tribunal proceedings in Italy (pertaining to copyright issues and academic issues, not murder, at least not yet :-)). Knox' prosecutor ludicrously mishandled the Florence serial killer case a few years ago, there are several books and a BBC documentary on this.

(Hi Zodiac, I hope you're fine. I thought of you just yesterday afternoon during the Whitechapel Society conference, when Don Rumbelow started talking about when he interviewed Sutcliffe.)

[tji]

It was clearly the African guy they arrested from the start.

I assume you mean Rudy Guede?

As for her being found innocent I think it was more a case of the collecting of the evidence was found to be faulty. It was Forensic incompetence/lack of knowledge that set her free not her innocence.

At worst she helped kill Meredith, at best she knew what happened, even if she didn't participate, in my opinion. Why point a finger at Lumumba unless she was trying to hide something.

Now she gets to sign a $1 million dollar tv deal while Meredith's family struggle to come to terms with all this.

Apparently she has also spent the last 4 years writing her memoirs, how true this is I don't know. If she has then in my opinion she was found guilty on part of the crime so she shouldn't be allowed to make any money off it.


Tracy

[tnb]

A couple of questions for anyone who has been following the details of this case a little more closely than I:

Where exactly was the CCTV camera that showed the postal police arriving at 12:35? From the photos I have seen of the cottage it doesn't look like the kind of place that would have a CCTV monitored car park but then again who knows.

How was Meredith's door locked - from the inside? If so, where was the key? (A familar question I know...)

There is as it happens a Casebook style (and very thorough) website on the case, but 1) I find it a little peculiar on such a recent case (I know I probably shouldn't) - 2) it is so vitriolic it makes the Hutchison threads on here look reasonable. I don't need that right now...

Amen, Zodiac by the way. Amen.

edit - Maria: Guede is a peculiar character, and the fact that his trial was effectively secret has left a lot of questions open. It is tempting to compare the poor Ivorian with the middle-class American and Italian son of a doctor, one opting for a fast track (quicker, cheaper) trial and the other two able to bankroll a lengthy appeals process, but I feel that would be oversimplifying a little...(not that I am suggesting you are doing that). One thing we do know Guede said is that he was in the cottage but didn't administer the fatal blow. Hardly makes him a saint but would be a strange lie to tell, in my opinion, as it was hardly ever going to get him off the hook was it? Although there is so much conjecture and differing opinion in this case, at least one judge agreed from the evidence that this was not the work of a lone killer. Personally who knows, I certainly don't, but I think most people would agree that, whatever the case with Knox and Solecitto, that Guede working alone would get you long odds.

[louisa]

She's guilty as hell and now will make a fortune from book deals and personal appearances on chat shows.

[mariab]

To Trevor, Tracy, Louisa:
I hope it didn't come off as I'm in any way whatsoever “sympathising“ with Knox as a person. She comes off as a totally immature brat, and now she's gonna attempt making a quick buck out of this.
But the evidence speaks against her having been involved in the murder, which was quite simple, really. The evidence links Guede to the case, who has a criminal record for burglaries and run off to Germany immediately after the murder.
If anyone cares to read what the prosecutor did with the Florence serial killer case a few years ago, his complete incompetence and his penchant for wild theorizing (including the occult) is scary indeed, for a legal prosecutor. He reminds me of a Royal conspiracy theorist, only that with his position he's responsible for human lives, unfortunately.