JonBenet Ramsey Update

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

you need to study up on the case more PI. john was with a friend, Fleet White, when he discovered her body.look it up.
And its not surprising burkes fingerprints were on the bowl and spoon . it was being kept in the fridge to be eaten whenever.
you dont hide a body by leaving it in the middle of a room, regardless if that room was in a basement.

and do you seriously think a mother who was only guilty of trying to cover up her son killing her daughter is going to do that by sexually abusing the daughters corpse and grusomely garrotting her? cmon
obviously the sexual abuse and violence are part of the pathology that led to her death. and all the evidence points to Patsy.

and really dude, you need to study up more on the case, if you cant even get basic facts straight, let alone analize it intelligently.

I would ask you kindly not to call me a dude, Abby.

I don't need to study 'up' the case more.

I read everything I could find on it last year.

I was aware that the father was with a friend when he went to look for the girl that time, but my recollection is that it was he who decided to look in the area of the basement where the body was and that it was he who found her.

His friend was not involved in that.

You write, you cant even get basic facts straight, let alone analize it intelligently.

I suggest that is an unfounded and gratuitously-insulting remark.

I could retort that you cannot spell the word analyse correctly.

You write, obviously the sexual abuse and violence are part of the pathology that led to her death. and all the evidence points to Patsy.

I'm sorry, but I disagree.

I don't think that that is obvious.

[Pcdunn]

I haven't read about the case for a while but I am sure that the father was alone when the body was 'discovered'.

The police had actually failed to find it.

From what I recall, the police asked John Ramsey and a friend of his to do another top to bottom search of the home, purportedly to give them something to do. John and the other guy eventually found her in the little storeroom.

Keep in mind the place was already crowded when the police arrived, with friends of the Ramseys who had been alerted that the child was missing and had come over to offer help and comfort. (Now, if the Ramseys *knew* there was a dead child in their basement, WHY would they spread the word so quickly that she was missing? That's a point in the favor of their innocence, perhaps.)
Unfortunately, the visitors cluttered the scene, and one lady had helpfully washed the dishes, including the pineapple bowl and spoon, I think.

[Abby Normal]

Wow Abby

And you're not impressed by MY analysis?!


The son related that the police burst into his bedroom (where, I suggest, he was being kept away from the limelight) and questioned him.
I do not recall the parents' being especially co-operative in that respect.

I don't recall that the body was left in the middle of anywhere. My recollection is that it was in a place in the basement that was tucked away.

That suggests that whoever put her there was NOT hoping the police would find her.

I don't agree that an innocent person would have done anything to the body on finding it, other than break down, which he evidently did not do.

I don't think the father was with a friend at the moment that he found her.

I have previously come across your idea that the mother bashed her over the head, but why do you think the father probably slept through the whole thing?

Cyril Wecht has the reverse scenario: the father killing the child (by accident) and the mother in bed alone.

I don't believe either theory.

You seem to have failed to take the pineapple into account.

A dish of pineapple with the son's fingerprints on it and an oversized spoon in it, undigested pineapple in the victim, and a witness who saw two figures walking on tiptoe during the night.

The two children must have been eating pineapple together, while the parents were in bed.

I am certain the strangulation was part of the cover-up.

i don't know who did that, but it is unusual, to say the least, for a strangulation to have been committed by a woman.

you need to study up on the case more PI. john was with a friend, Fleet White, when he discovered her body.look it up.
And its not surprising burkes fingerprints were on the bowl and spoon . it was being kept in the fridge to be eaten whenever.
you dont hide a body by leaving it in the middle of a room, regardless if that room was in a basement.

and do you seriously think a mother who was only guilty of trying to cover up her son killing her daughter is going to do that by sexually abusing the daughters corpse and grusomely garrotting her? cmon
obviously the sexual abuse and violence are part of the pathology that led to her death. and all the evidence points to Patsy.

and really dude, you need to study up more on the case, if you cant even get basic facts straight, let alone analize it intelligently.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

wow PI and wicky
not too impressed with your analysis on this one.

first of all the ramseys lawyered up immediately and yet let burke be interviewed. there is no way they would let him talk unless they knew he had no part or saw anything. hence he could say nothing to incriminate them.

secondly a nine year old is not going to know how to make and apply a garrott.

The materials to make the garrott, and the paint brush used to sexually assault her were Patsys. The handwriting of the note patsy was the only one who couldnt be eliminated. The police thought it was Patsy who killed her.
All the evidence points to if it was done by a family member, it was patsy.

wicker, there is no way they would have thought the police wouldnt search the house thoroughly and they could have easily hid her body, instead they left her in the middle of a room. they were probably hoping tje police would find her first. they didnt so eventually john had to do it first. which when he did btw, he left the garrott around her neck when he carried her upstairs. what innocent father wouldnt immediately rip that dam thing off?!?! patsy killed her and he went along with the cover up. and btw, John was with a friend when he found her.

So all the evidence points to patsy. so what was the motive and what happened? well, she was sexually abusing her daughter and things got violent. she bashed her over the head with something, maybe the mag flashlight that was found or the kids baseball bat, and strangled her to make sure she was dead. then writes the note to make it look like a botched kidnapping ..and then discovers the note. John was clueless, probably slept through the whole thing but figured it out and played dumb and went along with it.

Wow Abby

And you're not impressed by MY analysis?!


The son related that the police burst into his bedroom (where, I suggest, he was being kept away from the limelight) and questioned him.
I do not recall the parents' being especially co-operative in that respect.

I don't recall that the body was left in the middle of anywhere. My recollection is that it was in a place in the basement that was tucked away.

That suggests that whoever put her there was NOT hoping the police would find her.

I don't agree that an innocent person would have done anything to the body on finding it, other than break down, which he evidently did not do.

I don't think the father was with a friend at the moment that he found her.

I have previously come across your idea that the mother bashed her over the head, but why do you think the father probably slept through the whole thing?

Cyril Wecht has the reverse scenario: the father killing the child (by accident) and the mother in bed alone.

I don't believe either theory.

You seem to have failed to take the pineapple into account.

A dish of pineapple with the son's fingerprints on it and an oversized spoon in it, undigested pineapple in the victim, and a witness who saw two figures walking on tiptoe during the night.

The two children must have been eating pineapple together, while the parents were in bed.

I am certain the strangulation was part of the cover-up.

i don't know who did that, but it is unusual, to say the least, for a strangulation to have been committed by a woman.

[Abby Normal]

I haven't read about the case for a while but I am sure that the father was alone when the body was 'discovered'.

The police had actually failed to find it.

Any attempt to dispose of the body would have been very risky once the police had been alerted, so the Ramsey parents would have had to 'find' the body, unless they were prepared to let the body decompose for a while, hope the police did not smell it during visits, and then dispose of it when the police's interest had decreased.

I too have sometimes thought that they originally planned to dispose of the body, but I think they lost their nerves.

I agree that the brother must have been the one who set the tragedy in motion.

I doubt that he played any further role.

The mother's role was to make the phone call to the police and write the ransom letter, both of which were 'over-acted'.

The fact that the father carried the girl's body upstairs and showed it to the police is curious.

I would imagine that most people in his situation would not have touched it and would instead have gone back upstairs and either collapsed or vomited.

wow PI and wicky
not too impressed with your analysis on this one.

first of all the ramseys lawyered up immediately and yet let burke be interviewed. there is no way they would let him talk unless they knew he had no part or saw anything. hence he could say nothing to incriminate them.

secondly a nine year old is not going to know how to make and apply a garrott.

The materials to make the garrott, and the paint brush used to sexually assault her were Patsys. The handwriting of the note patsy was the only one who couldnt be eliminated. The police thought it was Patsy who killed her.
All the evidence points to if it was done by a family member, it was patsy.

wicker, there is no way they would have thought the police wouldnt search the house thoroughly and they could have easily hid her body, instead they left her in the middle of a room. they were probably hoping tje police would find her first. they didnt so eventually john had to do it first. which when he did btw, he left the garrott around her neck when he carried her upstairs. what innocent father wouldnt immediately rip that dam thing off?!?! patsy killed her and he went along with the cover up. and btw, John was with a friend when he found her.

So all the evidence points to patsy. so what was the motive and what happened? well, she was sexually abusing her daughter and things got violent. she bashed her over the head with something, maybe the mag flashlight that was found or the kids baseball bat, and strangled her to make sure she was dead. then writes the note to make it look like a botched kidnapping ..and then discovers the note. John was clueless, probably slept through the whole thing but figured it out and played dumb and went along with it.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I haven't read about the case for a while but I am sure that the father was alone when the body was 'discovered'.

The police had actually failed to find it.

Any attempt to dispose of the body would have been very risky once the police had been alerted, so the Ramsey parents would have had to 'find' the body, unless they were prepared to let the body decompose for a while, hope the police did not smell it during visits, and then dispose of it when the police's interest had decreased.

I too have sometimes thought that they originally planned to dispose of the body, but I think they lost their nerves.

I agree that the brother must have been the one who set the tragedy in motion.

I doubt that he played any further role.

The mother's role was to make the phone call to the police and write the ransom letter, both of which were 'over-acted'.

The fact that the father carried the girl's body upstairs and showed it to the police is curious.

I would imagine that most people in his situation would not have touched it and would instead have gone back upstairs and either collapsed or vomited.

[Wickerman]

If the girl was mistakenly believed to be dead (or even actually dead) and strangled in order to hide the true cause of her supposed death, then who is the most likely candidate?

I think it began with Burke, whether the two kids were play-acting or Burke lost his temper and hit JonBenet over the head we can't be sure but JB must have been assaulted and assumed to be dead. Burke may even have applied the tourniquet, somehow I can't see Patsy doing that as part of the coverup.
She must have realized that if she gives Burke away she loses both her children, so fabricates evidence to make it look like an intruder.
I wonder if Burke suggested an intruder as his excuse, Patsy not finding any evidence of that decided to support him and make it look like an intruder had broken in.
There was so many holes in their stories it is hard to be sure what could have happened, so as we cannot give a blow-by-blow account it looks to me like Burke was initially responsible, and things just escalated downhill from there.

I think they hatched a plan to tell the police JB had been kidnapped, they hid the body not expecting anyone to search the house. Once the body of JB was found it complicated things. I think they expected the police to come and take some details then leave. Which would then give them time to think what to do with the body, but their plan fell apart.
I remember reading about four books on the case some years ago and coming away with the belief that when John & the other guy? discovered JB in the basement, truly John did not have a clue she was there.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

their interviews are bizarre. they went to the tv stations literally days after, and before they talked to the police, she was murdered . and continued to do so and never shed a tear and talked about themselves being innocent tje whole time. ive seen hundreds of true crime shows with interviews of parents of murdered children and ive never seen anything like how the ramseys behaved. never.

Maybe you have seen rather more of the interviews they gave than I have.

I recall that the one to which I referred was given many years later.

I did see the latest interview with the son, in which he became annoyed at being asked to recall whether he ate pineapple around the time of the tragedy.

He said he could not be expected to remember after such a long time.

[Abby Normal]

I would be interested to see that.

I did see an interview in which he described what he said was the most terrifying moment - the moment when they realised that their daughter had been kidnapped.

Is it really believable that he himself believed at the time he gave that interview that his daughter had been kidnapped?

He did not say that he had thought she had been kidnapped, but that he realised that she HAD been.

I do not know whether you have seen Cyril Wecht's lecture on the case, but I think his theory is quite wrong.

I don't think the father initiated the tragedy at all, but he must have been involved in it.

their interviews are bizarre. they went to the tv stations literally days after, and before they talked to the police, she was murdered . and continued to do so and never shed a tear and talked about themselves being innocent tje whole time. ive seen hundreds of true crime shows with interviews of parents of murdered children and ive never seen anything like how the ramseys behaved. never.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I would say John. I remember watching one of their first interviews on local TV news, very soon after the discovery of the body. Perhaps it was a sort of press conferance. In response to a reporter's question, Pasty opened her mouth as if to answer, but John tightened his grip on her hand and she either didn't reply or stopped in mid-sentence. He seemed controlling, somehow, not just supportive.

<shrug> ,,, But what do I know?

I would be interested to see that.

I did see an interview in which he described what he said was the most terrifying moment - the moment when they realised that their daughter had been kidnapped.

Is it really believable that he himself believed at the time he gave that interview that his daughter had been kidnapped?

He did not say that he had thought she had been kidnapped, but that he realised that she HAD been.

I do not know whether you have seen Cyril Wecht's lecture on the case, but I think his theory is quite wrong.

I don't think the father initiated the tragedy at all, but he must have been involved in it.

[Pcdunn]

If the girl was mistakenly believed to be dead (or even actually dead) and strangled in order to hide the true cause of her supposed death, then who is the most likely candidate?

I would say John. I remember watching one of their first interviews on local TV news, very soon after the discovery of the body. Perhaps it was a sort of press conferance. In response to a reporter's question, Pasty opened her mouth as if to answer, but John tightened his grip on her hand and she either didn't reply or stopped in mid-sentence. He seemed controlling, somehow, not just supportive.

<shrug> ,,, But what do I know?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Many were suspicious, including myself, over Burke, that he had accidentally caused the death of his little sister and the mother (Patricia) fabricated evidence to throw suspicion on an intruder.
Yet, if there was any credence to the intruder story then Michael Helgoth seemed the most likely suspect.
I always thought the father (John) was both innocent & oblivious to the sequence of events, and his wife & son's role in the death of Jonbenet - assuming there was no intruder.

If the girl was mistakenly believed to be dead (or even actually dead) and strangled in order to hide the true cause of her supposed death, then who is the most likely candidate?

[jason_c]

I'm almost certain as can be that it was an inside job. I have no firm opinion on which Ramsey killed JonBenet other than John is probably the least likely of the three. The DNA stuff is a sideshow.

[Abby Normal]

Here's a wild theory--maybe more suitable for an episode of Columbo than real life, but not impossible.

The mother finds the daughter and assumes Burke did it and writes the note as you suggest...

But Burke is innocent, and it was an intruder after all (!)

Crazy, but it could explain all the conflicting evidence.

Cue Peter Falk...

ive heard one that Patsy was having an affair and it was the guy, and or his friend who did it.
that would also explain alot of it. and not too far fetched.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Those who favor the intruder theory claim the culprit came in through the basement to begin with, and then found his way upstairs.

It depends on who or what you believe, but supposedly one window had been broken sometime previously (by John Ramsey who claims he had locked himself out), and two others were left slightly cracked to allow extension cords outside for the Christmas lights.

I thought the intruder theory has the intruder entering at ground level.

What are the chances of an intruder being able to enter the house, help himself to pineapple, fracture the girl's head, strangle her, borrow pen and paper (I think the paper was in the Ramsey couple's bedroom, but need to check), compose a ransom note, hide the body is the basement, and then leave, without any of the three surviving members of the family hearing anything or seeing anything?