Lizzie Borden Case

[Tom_Wescott]

There are actually zero signs that Lizzie was a lesbo. This is propaganda that started when the feminists became interested in the case.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Errata]

There are actually zero signs that Lizzie was a lesbo. This is propaganda that started when the feminists became interested in the case.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Signs was probably not the best word choice. It was a conclusion based on her friendship with Nance O'Neill and her break with her sister.

Not for nothing, but the tone of your post comes off as pejorative to both lesbians and feminists. And you may not have intended to give that impression. But it compels me to point out that being either a lesbian or feminist is not a state of being deserving of scorn.

[louisa]

In almost every case where a murder happens in someone's home, the same thing happens..........people start saying that they saw a tramp or a strange looking man loitering in the area, or similar. I presume that people just want to help, but unfortunately they send the police off in the wrong directions and waste valuable time.

As we all know by now, murders of this type are almost always carried out by family members or by somebody known to the family.

I suspect that Lizzie and her sister were sick to death of being dictated to by an overly strict father and a bossy stepmother. They could see no end to this state of affairs - it could go forever. (as both were spinsters with no marriage prospects in sight).

When a child grows up but continues to live with his/her parents they effectively still get treated as a child by the parents.

Lizzie must have realised how wonderful life would be without these two people and I think her sister would have agreed.

[belinda]

The Borden case is very interesting. Bridget Sullivan knew more than she ever told which is a pity.

[Tom_Wescott]

No evidence for 'Lezzie' Borden

Not for nothing, but the tone of your post comes off as pejorative to both lesbians and feminists. And you may not have intended to give that impression. But it compels me to point out that being either a lesbian or feminist is not a state of being deserving of scorn.

You're quite fond of stating your opinions as facts, it seems. No worries, we all do the same sometimes. As a matter of fact, I do have a problem with any special interest group who screws with historical accuracy in order to further their cause or movement, whether it be the Nazis (who published their own Ripper pamphlet) or feminazis. Feminists make horrendous historians and have completely muddled the Borden case. While I have no particular problem with lesbians as such, I have little patience for the modern feminist activist (straight or gay), who as a man I view in a similar way as you probably view a white supremacist group. Because you're female, you would naturally not share this view. Conversely, I hold much respect for early feminists who operated at a time when such a thing was truly necessary. Through my research in Ripper suspect Robert D'Onston Stephenson, I learned about Vittoria Woodhull, and thought she was pretty bad ass. Same with Annie Besant and a number of others who put themselves at personal risk for a good cause.

In any event, Borden having taken a celebrity friend hardly makes her a lesbian, and this completely overlooks the apparent physical relationship Lizzie enjoyed with her coachman, much to her sister's chagrin. If I'm not mistaken, Nance was a spitfire who was as known for her male associates as much as anything else. Borden's appeal to her was most likely the fact that she was a woman who butchered her parents. One can hardly blame Nance for her curiosity and utilizing her celebrity to get close to Borden to satisfy her curiosity. If a real friendship grew from that, then so be it. But to suggest a love affair could only be used to support an agenda, whether it be pro-gay (who also grossly condemn Andrew as an abusive child molester whom Lizzie heroically struck back at) or anti-gay (to build an argument for Lizzie as some sort of deviant with a secret life). I can't support either side as it's not historically responsible.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[louisa]

"Because you're female, you would naturally not share this view"

Tom - I'm female and I share your the views in your above post.

[Errata]

You're quite fond of stating your opinions as facts, it seems. No worries, we all do the same sometimes. As a matter of fact, I do have a problem with any special interest group who screws with historical accuracy in order to further their cause or movement, whether it be the Nazis (who published their own Ripper pamphlet) or feminazis. Feminists make horrendous historians and have completely muddled the Borden case. While I have no particular problem with lesbians as such, I have little patience for the modern feminist activist (straight or gay), who as a man I view in a similar way as you probably view a white supremacist group. Because you're female, you would naturally not share this view. Conversely, I hold much respect for early feminists who operated at a time when such a thing was truly necessary. Through my research in Ripper suspect Robert D'Onston Stephenson, I learned about Vittoria Woodhull, and thought she was pretty bad ass. Same with Annie Besant and a number of others who put themselves at personal risk for a good cause.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

First of all, I'm sorry I ever brought up the lesbian theory. I just meant to throw that out there as a crack. It was proposed by two researchers (men by the way) but no one, including me, takes it seriously.

I don't think that my statement of "opinion as fact" is out of line, or is not fact. Are there feminists out there with a psychotic need to rewrite history in order to make women look either more independent or more oppressed by men? Absolutely. I despise them as well. But that isn't all feminists. It isn't even a majority of feminists. It's a shrill minority. I'm a feminist. I believe in many feminist ideals that still have not been accomplished because the psychos won't shut the hell up. I mean, rewrite history later. Achieve pay equity now. Think men are scum all you want, but shut your mouth and do something about domestic violence, prostitution, medical inequity and family planning. I'm sure your mother was a feminist, I'm sure most women you know are feminists. We aren't those agitating hysterics anymore than Christians are the Westboro Baptist Church.

But this has probably derailed this thread pretty effectively. Which I did not intend to do. Mea Culpa

[louisa]

I may be alone in this but I don't know any woman who would describe herself as a feminist. Any woman worth her salt is in favour of equality in the workplace, etc., but I wouldn't necessarily call them feminists. We're just women trying to get along in this world, and get along with everyone. Chauvinistic men can simply be ignored.

[The Grave Maurice]

...I don't know any woman who would describe herself as a feminist.

That, to me, is a very interesting statement, Louisa. I assume that you must be young. When I was young, I don't think I knew any women who didn't call themselves feminists. My wife still does.

As to whether Lizzie dunnit, of course she did. There are no other believable options.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Errata, I don't know how old you are, but I know Grave Maurice is pretty old, so back in his day it was hip to belong to some civil rights group or another, thus many women were feminists. My mother was not among them. And very few women are actual feminists. Thinking women should be paid the same as a man for the same job is not feminist, it's just common sense. It's something virtually all of us can agree on. If you are not an activist in the cause, you are not a feminist. Feminists are the nuts who got it to where half of hurricanes must have a male name, and try to get the word 'history' changed to something that does not defer to the masculine. Women have all equal rights now, so that's what the cause is reduced to. A feminist believes in the superiority of her sex. You know what the male counterpart is called? Male chauvinist pig, or sexist. How fair is that? But I digress. And I think it was ChainzCooper who brought up Lizzie being a lesbian.

Incidentally, I believe there is still such a thing as a 'real man' and a 'real woman' and there always will be. All the left wing propaganda in the world won't change that.

Hi Louisa,

Thanks for the support, but I would be surprised if you would view feminism with the same disdain I do. As a man, I'm conscious of the fact that feminists are anti-Tom, and anything anti-Tom sucks hardcore.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[jason_c]

I may be alone in this but I don't know any woman who would describe herself as a feminist. Any woman worth her salt is in favour of equality in the workplace, etc., but I wouldn't necessarily call them feminists. We're just women trying to get along in this world, and get along with everyone. Chauvinistic men can simply be ignored.

Well said babe.....

[Errata]

Hi Louisa,

Thanks for the support, but I would be surprised if you would view feminism with the same disdain I do. As a man, I'm conscious of the fact that feminists are anti-Tom, and anything anti-Tom sucks hardcore.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I'm sorry that just made me laugh really hard. Anything anti-Tom does suck hardcore. I mean, unless they know you personally. Then their anti-Tomness may be horribly misguided, but still valid. Old school feminism is still alive and well, even if people do not think of themselves as such. Just as there are still Civil Rights leaders even though integration is 50 years old. I mean, we still don't have pay equity, which is mind boggling. And it is "just fair", but if women in the US still only make 80% of what a man in a identical job makes, then the fight is still there to be fought.

As for Lizzie, I agree with the statement "who else could it be?" You look outside the household and no one there makes sense, you look inside the household and that leaves Lizzie or Bridget, and Lizzie has a far better motive. But Lizzie killing her father is nigh impossible. Even if Bridget helped. Which she didn't because she didn't have any blood on her either. So now neither one of them could have done it, which is impossible because the man did not axe murder himself. I think what we are left with is Lizzie being the best suspect, but not a good one.

I don't think she is innocent. I think she arranged it. I don't think it would be too hard for her to find someone who rabidly hated her father and say "I can make certain you get away with it as long as you do it." Geez for all we know he cleaned himself up and waited in the cellar for the house to fill with people and then came upstairs to join the crowd as though he came in the back door. I mean, as with all the great mysteries we will never know. Involving a third party is in fact an insane risk, but it would explain some things. And the house just lends itself to someone hiding out. It's really nutty. You should see it.

[ChainzCooper]

I was sort of shooting from the hip with my post about Lizzie Borden. Which is why I started it with a Jules Winfield quote
Jordan

[belinda]

That, to me, is a very interesting statement, Louisa. I assume that you must be young. When I was young, I don't think I knew any women who didn't call themselves feminists. My wife still does.

I agree Maurice. I grew up around women who were Feminists.Deriding Feminism seems to be popular with those under twenty five who take what they have now for granted and don't realise how different life was for women a mere forty years ago.

What exactly is so wrong with being a Feminist?

[louisa]

Because being a 'feminist' sounds so radical. It conjures up images (in my mind anyway) of hard faced man haters.

I believe in equality for everyone. I fully understand that an oppressed group of people have to shout extra loud to achieve even a tiny bit of change in the system, but this has been done already.

Now this has been done and women can now level off and enjoy all the benefits that equality with men brings. There's no need to shout anymore!

Yes there are still some dinosaurs out there but they're a dying breed.

As stated previously, I'm all in favour of equality in the workplace and I would certainly take a dim view of being patronized (for simply being a woman) by any man, however, I still like good old fashioned manners.

There are still some resentful and ignorant men around who think that now women have fought for equal rights, they can let a door swing in her face, that kind of thing. Well personally I wouldn't let a door swing in anyone's face, male or female.