Lizzie Borden Case

[xinthrau]

If you arent familiar with all the details there are many pages about the crime. Elizabeth Borden stood accused of killing her stepmother and father with an axe. She was tried and found not guilty,nobody else was ever arrested or charged in the crime. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizzie_Borden

[Graham]

A bit like the Charles Bravo case, in which there are only two suspects (in the Borden case, possibly three) but as it was impossible to pin genuine suspicion on any one, both cases were effectively dismissed. (Yes I know, Lizzie was tried, but it was really a waste of public funds as it was plain to all at the time that she'd be acquitted).

Strange case.

Cheers,

Graham

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm moving this from another thread.

Why do you think John Morse was involved? By the way, have you read the actual transcript of Lizzie's interrogation?

Hi Rob. At one time or another I've read all that's available on the Borden case, though I don't pretend to have made a careful study of it yet like I have the Ripper case. Regarding Morse, I find him extremely suspicious. He was Abby Borden's brother. He hadn't visited in years, but suddenly decided to come down at that time, in the midst of Lizzie deciding to kill her parents. You''ll remember her first attempt was at purchasing poison. On the day of the murder, Morse made a point not only of being removed from the house, but he made a spectacle of himself on the public transportation he was taking, made many visits to respectable citizens, and suspiciously was able to provide police with an alibi of every move he made that day. He gave the numbers and times of buses he took, at what time he visited who, etc. Then POOF he split again. I'm not sure how he figures into the murders, if he does at all, but if he doesn't, then he was a very quirky person who just happened to choose the week Lizzie planned to murder her family to visit his sister after a long absence.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[sdreid]

I had heard of the case with some vague stories but the first significant account I was exposed to was when I watched the Armstrong Circle Theater rendition in 1961. We discussed it in school the next; in English class oddly. I always thought Lizzie did it but the TV program leaned more toward Bridget Sullivan as the killer.

[Errata]

I played Lizzie Borden once. Very cathartic. I actually kind of think she didn't do it, but knew who did. There theoretically was this bad seed illegitimate half brother who could have done it. I just think that with as contentious a relationship as she had with her stepmother, that would have been the really grotesque corpse, not her father.

[robhouse]

I think in this case, it is pretty clear that Lizzie committed the murder on her own accord. Her original inquest testimony is very interesting reading. It is very suspicious... throughout she is evasive, and offers answers that defy common sense.
See; http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/project...eninquest.html

John Morse, from what I understand, was summoned to Fall River by Lizzie's father a week before the murders, to discuss a business matter. And I think in fact he did visit the Bordens with some regularity (ie. several times) in the two years preceding the murders... generally showing up unannounced like he did on this occasion.

RH

[Supe]

Tom,

John Morse was the brother of Andrew Borden's first wife and that puts a different slant on everything. As it is, some theorists, such as Victoria Lincoln, surmise it was because of John's visit (and conversations Lizzie overheard between the two men) that she first killed Abby and then Andrew.

And Rob, I have read the interrogation and other documents.

Don.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Supe, thanks for the correction. You're quite right, he was the brother of Andrew's first wife.

Hi Errata. As much as you might want Lizzie to be innocent, like Patsy, I'm afraid that's just not the case.

Hi Rob. I don't believe John was 'summoned' and I'm pretty sure it had been quite some time since his visit. His alibi makes it clear that he wasn't in the house when the murders occurred, but I still think there's something there.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[louisa]

Lizzie Borden was very very lucky.

The all male jury simply refused to believe that such a demure and ladylike person from such a good family could do such a thing. Maybe they just didn't want their town to be tarnished by having a convicted murderer in their midst.

Lizzie had changed her dress after the murder and was seen to be burning one in the downstairs furnace, if my memory serves me.

I think she harboured resentment which turned into bitter hatred towards her stepmother and blamed her father for allowing the situation.

[Marko]

Yes, she was seen burning a dress that she claimed had paint on it. I think she was also trying to obtain Prussic acid the week before.

[robhouse]

John Morse lived in South Dartmouth MA, just 17 miles East of Fall River. According to his testimony (here http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/project...stimony.html):

"I went to the Borden house on Wednesday, August 3rd. I had visited there three or four weeks earlier; had not seen Miss Lizzie for three or four months before that."

Also, according to this page (http://www.thelizziebordencollection...um-morse.php):

"The literature related to the Borden murders makes much out of John's visit the day before the murders. He was said to arrive mysteriously with no explanation and just the suit on his back. However, John visited with the Bordens frequently in the two years leading up to the murders and it was not uncommon for him to show up for unplanned overnight visits. He was a short train ride away, and didn't always send word ahead when he came to see Andrew. He also kept up a correspondence with Emma, although his contact with Lizzie seemed comparatively distant. A week before the tragedy, Andrew had been in contact with John about a man who qualified to manage the family's Swansea farm. Andrew insisted that John come talk to him in person, and, on the afternoon of August 3rd, 1892, John arrived without luggage or a change of clothes at the Borden home. His arrival occurred just as the couple were finishing their dinner.

There is no reason to doubt that the two men just wanted to catch up on business. At the trial in 1893, John even produced, on the witness stand, Andrew's letter that had called him to Fall River, a document that was promptly appropriated by District Attorney Knowlton, causing it to effectively disappear from history. "

[Errata]

Lizzie Borden was very very lucky.

The all male jury simply refused to believe that such a demure and ladylike person from such a good family could do such a thing. Maybe they just didn't want their town to be tarnished by having a convicted murderer in their midst.

Lizzie had changed her dress after the murder and was seen to be burning one in the downstairs furnace, if my memory serves me.

I think she harboured resentment which turned into bitter hatred towards her stepmother and blamed her father for allowing the situation.

Lizzie changed her dress after people were already in the house, responding to her summoning help. I think it was even after initial police questioning.

The problem with Lizzie being the murderer is the timing and the lack of blood evidence. There is about 15 minutes between the last time Lizzie was seen while her father was still alive, and the first time Lizzie was seen after the murder. So best case scenario she would have to run upstairs, change clothes (or strip naked if you are a fan of that scenario) run downstairs, axe murder her father, run downstairs to get rid of the hatchet, run to the kitchen to wash all traces of blood from her skin and hair, dry her hair, run back upstairs to put on the outfit she was wearing earlier, run back downstairs and call Bridget for help. All in 10 or 15 minutes, all without Bridget hearing a thing. A third party is in the house maybe 10 minutes after Bridget was alerted to the murder.

She totally could have killed her stepmother. There was plenty of time for that. I just don't think she could have killed her father. And it's kind of hard to paint a scenario where two different people axe murdered two different people in the house that day. I think she knew who did it, and I think she covered for that person. I think she was an accomplice, maybe even the instigator, but I don't think she was the one who actually wielded the axe.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Rob, thanks for that. Incidentally, I believe the Knowlton papers exist, but are held in perpetuity by a law firm. I still think Morse's actions make him suspicious.

Hi Errata,

Of course Lizzie wielded the hatchet, unless you're suggesting her unknown boyfriend came over and did it with her standing by, but that's too risky, and no man was seen coming or going. I mention 'unknown boyfriend' because Andrew was overheard talking to Lizzie about a man she was presumably seeing, and telling her she couldn't see him any more. However, the fact that no evidence of this man came about with everyone talking and gossiping makes me question if this conversation between father and daughter ever happened.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[ChainzCooper]

I thought the word around the campfire was that Lizzie was a lesbian and she got into a huge argument with her parents about it the day of the murder. Or that they caught her and the maid together which resulted in an altercation which lead to the murders.Interesting, I didn't know she had a boyfriend
Jordan

[Errata]

Hi Errata,

Of course Lizzie wielded the hatchet, unless you're suggesting her unknown boyfriend came over and did it with her standing by, but that's too risky, and no man was seen coming or going. I mention 'unknown boyfriend' because Andrew was overheard talking to Lizzie about a man she was presumably seeing, and telling her she couldn't see him any more. However, the fact that no evidence of this man came about with everyone talking and gossiping makes me question if this conversation between father and daughter ever happened.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

There actually seems to be some signs that Lizzie was a lesbian, but that's probably neither here nor there.

Actually two men were seen around the time of the murder of Andrew Borden. A man was spotted in a coach stopped just past the house by a neighbor, and a woman who lived over the store down the street saw a guy hopping on the fence by the pear tree, presumably to pick pears. Is either of these guys the killer? Probably not. But maybe.

I actually don't think it would be that hard to let someone in the house and have them hang around unseen until both murders could be accomplished. That house is impossible. I don't know if there is a layout of the place online, but I've been in it and it's like it was designed by a madman. Two sets of stairs, completely non interchangeable. There are no hallways, so the rooms open directly into each other, where the doors aren't locked or blocked. If they were careful, someone could probably squat in the spare bedroom for weeks without anyone noticing. Thats part of the reason the descriptions of various actions seem so confusing. Because the house is confusing.