The Red Baron Mystery

[Graham]

The Fokker DVII did indeed have cantilever wings, one of the first aircraft so designed. The wings used what is known as a box-spar which gives great stiffness to the structure. No interstrut bracing at all on the DVII wings, as a study of a decent photo of one will show. That's one reason why the DVII has always been popular with flying scale-model builders.

Graham

[Steve S]

Mea Culpa.....It's been 30-odd years since I was 'into' WWI aircraft & I mentally confused interplane bracing & interplane struts......How about a nice corregated Junkers.......?
Steve

[Graham]

Ah well, yes - the Junkers D1 all-metal low-wing monoplane. Idea was to produce an aircraft that would survive being kept outdoors in all weathers. A typical wood/fabric WW1 biplane even if not shot down, damaged or caught fire would last only 6-9 months in typical northern France weather conditions. Glue joints coming apart was the most common problem.

The D1 was one of the fastest WW1 fighters (over 140mph in some cases), could be dived without breaking up, and had neither internal nor external bracing. It arrived too late to make any difference to the balance of air-power on the Western Front, and was also expensive and difficult to construct (only 15 were built) - wood/fabric aircraft could be, and were, built by non-skilled labour such as furniture manufacturers. I don't think there is a single surviving D1 any more, but somewhere there's a replica still flying. Its main drawback, I believe, was that it wasn't very manoeverable compared with a biplane. Dr Junkers went on to produce the Ju 52 3-engined transport ("Iron Annie") which was manufactured as late as 1960 by the Spanish CASA company - corrugated aluminium was pretty damn good!

Cheers,

Graham.

[Steve S]

The replica was at English Heritage's 'Festival of History' about three years ago...Our battlefield had to be curtailed to provide space for a (thankfully un-needed) emergency landing strip...Opposition was a replica SE5a flown by an ex-Battle of Britain pilot.
Steve

[Graham]

Hi Steve,

where was this, then? I'd love to see that replica D1 in flight - I had a look on the net and see that it's German-made, surprise surprise.

I take it you're into re-enactments?

Cheers,

Graham

[Steve S]

Kelmarsh hall in Northants...Yes,I'm a double-dyed Anorak!...English Civil War AND French and Indian War............

[quasar]

Red Zepplin,

Interesting timing, as I was just watching a DVD I got on loan from my local library, called ' Michael Wittmann - Tiger Ace'. There was some interesting things I did not know about him. Firstly, he did not get all of his victories in his Tiger.He was, for a long time, merely a self propelled gun commander - all be it a brilliant one.He scored many of his kills in this vehicle. It was when they gave him a Tiger to play with, that the carnage reached a new level, and spelt doom for anyone coming into his path.

Secondly, I would give a huge slice of the credit and legendary status he achieved, to his tank gunner. His part in the Wittmann legend has been underated.

They only touched on his death, so I was not aware there was any mystery surrounding who got him - as with M. Richtofen. All they said was that well placed British armour blew his Tiger up. So probably some anti-tank gun crew got him and did not even know who they hit that day in France. Q.

[Steve S]

Re Wittmann......I seem to recall it was a posse of Cromwells in a very confusing fight....So I would guess it was a shot from the rear,thinking 75mm v. Tiger I..............
Steve

[Red Zeppelin]

Re Wittmann......I seem to recall it was a posse of Cromwells in a very confusing fight....So I would guess it was a shot from the rear,thinking 75mm v. Tiger I..............
Steve

The favourite is between British Sherman Fireflys ambushing him on the flank and Canadian Fireflys, also on the flank in ambush. That was the one of the few times when Wittmann was reckless, probably due to the situation at the time leading up to the Falaise Pocket. He took a risk there in wide open country due to the desperate nature of the way the fighting was going. He didn't seem to heed the potential hidden danger in the orchard on his flank as he moved off across this open area. But he took charge when he thought a junior commander was too inexperienced. Even a Tiger couldn't withstand a flank ambush shot.

[Red Zeppelin]

Red Zepplin,

Interesting timing, as I was just watching a DVD I got on loan from my local library, called ' Michael Wittmann - Tiger Ace'. There was some interesting things I did not know about him. Firstly, he did not get all of his victories in his Tiger.He was, for a long time, merely a self propelled gun commander - all be it a brilliant one.He scored many of his kills in this vehicle. It was when they gave him a Tiger to play with, that the carnage reached a new level, and spelt doom for anyone coming into his path.

Hi quasar. I have that DVD too. The script for that DVD is mostly taken from the 2 Volumes by Patrick Agte called Michael Wittmman and The Tiger Commanders of The Leibstandarte. They are very very good and go into much more detail.

Secondly, I would give a huge slice of the credit and legendary status he achieved, to his tank gunner. His part in the Wittmann legend has been underated.

Yes, most definitely. Balthasar Woll, who then went on to command his own Tiger.

They only touched on his death, so I was not aware there was any mystery surrounding who got him - as with M. Richtofen. All they said was that well placed British armour blew his Tiger up. So probably some anti-tank gun crew got him and did not even know who they hit that day in France. Q.

For a long time there were various claims about a rocket from a Typhoon fighter bomber. This is what German propaganda claimed at the time (although the crews of other Tigers who weren't lost in the attack never mentioned any air attack). The sole picture (taken in 1945) of Wittmann's wrecked Tiger seemed to support the air attack according to some. Not for others.

Counter claims after the war from various other (tank) units came about, particularly the claim of British tanker Joe Ekins in his Sherman Firefly. A more recent, some say more likely, claim has been put forward for Canadian Fireflys who appear to have been closer to Wittmann's position at the time.

The most important aspect though is that when he was killed, even though Wittmann was well known in Germany, most allied tankers had never even heard of him until much later after the war and they certainly wouldn't have known it was Wittmann in his Tiger who was killed that day crossing that open field. He chopped and changed his Tigers in Normandy. He used at least four different Tigers in Normandy, the last one (the one he was killed in) was one of the command Tigers numbered 007. Even the Tiger he used during his famous Villers Bocage rampage wasn't his usual Tiger. It was just the first one he jumped in that was working and ready to move off. His original Tiger in Normandy was number 205 but that one needed repairs once it got to the front line a day before Villers Bocage.

With nothing to 'prove' who exactly got Wittmann, the story has had parallels with The Red Barron. These most recent claims advocating Canadian Firefly's just add to it. His tank was definitely taken out on the flank by an allied Sherman Firefly though. That seems to be the accepted fact, at least.

[Red Zeppelin]

Apologies for taking this thread further off topic but if anyone is seriously interested in the Michael Wittmann debate, this is good new documentary concerning the question of who got him. They visit the actual battle site and go into great detail.

Just a heads up!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqdUafuKEpA

[quasar]

I have recently watched this Red Zepplin,

Unfortunately for me , I have 2 good friends who are Canadian, so they have reminded me of the scorecard - and I will never hear the end of it now:

1. Roy Brown - downed M.Richtofem - Canadian.

2. Tank behind brick wall - downed M.Wittmann - Canadian.

I would like to know what happened to the remains of his tank.It seemed to sit where it was crippled for a very long time, in some French farmers field. If anyone had the forsight to keep the tank, I would like to examine it next time I go to Europe. Q.

[Steve S]

Seem to recall the subject was examined in the book 'Panzers in Normandy:Now And Then'........Never found Wittmann's..But I've clambered over one of Peiper's Tiger II's at La Gleize in the Ardennes..........
Steve

[quasar]

The Wittmann legend did not really start until after the war. Unlike Richtofen, who, by the time he was shot down, had achieved a cult following. So I assume that no one at the time saw any importance in his mangled tiger.

The two tanks from WW2 that I have not examined, and really want to, are the two titans. The imfamous King Tiger2 and the Joseph Stalin tank. Was not aware of the king Tiger at La Gleize. I assume the only chance of seeing a JS tank would be in Russia.

Which raises another point of interest. I know some Australian's suveneered some parts of The Red Barron's plane, but the remains of the plane it'self are still a mystery to me. The bona fide Red Barron plane would fetch millions of dollars today.I know that the conquering Soviet Union soldiers in WW2 ransacked the home which held most of his stuff.But not sure about the plane? Thanks, Q.

[Steve S]

I think there's a Tiger II at the Bovington tank museum.....& a JSII at the Imperial War Museum at Duxford...Will be going to Bovington in May...I'll see what they've got...about 5 years since last visit,so not sure.
Steve