The Red Baron Mystery

[quasar]

One of the great mysteries to come out of the Great War was who really shot down German ace Manfred Richthofen.The conjecture surrounding the events of April 21, 1918 have caused heated debate for decades.
The RAF credited Canadian Captain Athur "Roy" Brown with the kill, and for a long time it was considered heresy to suggest otherwise. The pilot himself was in no doubt.
However, decades later , with a closer look at the event, more credence was given to the claim that Australian AA crews were resposible for downing the ace. Experts believe the fatal wound, through his heart and lungs, came from an upwardly direction. They believe that Aussie AA gunner Popkin was most likely to have fired the decisive shot.He claimed he had fired straight up at Richtofen's Fokker Triplane. Some say it was yet another AA gunner firing upward.

The RAF and Canadian airforce have not changed thier view that Brown shot him down. So the dilema remains - just who shot him down? If I were to give an unbiased oppinion, I would say it is most likely that it was Brown, simply because of the distance involved.He was right behind Richtofen, and in a good position to fire and see the result.The australian's on the ground were too far away to see with the naked eye if thier shots had hit the mark. With no definate way of knowing, I think it most likely that the closer Brown( who was no slouch, and an ace himself) was in a far better position to have dealt it. Thanks , Q.

[Phryne Fisher]

Nah, it was that bloke on the grassy knoll

(Sorry quasar, please excuse my sledgehammer 'wit' )

I didn't actually know there was any mystery about who got 'im; learn something every day. From what you've told us, I'd say Brown's yer man. What does 'AA' stand for?

Interesting about the Red Baron; that he's still so famous, almost revered even by The Other Side (ie, us). A legend, but he was one o' them wicked Nazis. What's that about, I wonder

[Graham]

Phryne,

No, von Richtofen was not a Nazi, nasty or otherwise. 1918 was the first world war, and the Nazi party hadn't been created at that stage. Not to say that von R didn't perhaps think like a Nazi...

Not revered so much as respected...fliers in those days were feted as heroes.

AA is anti-aircraft...

Someone a few years ago did a computer re-creation of von R's shoot-down, and placed all the coordinates linking his aircraft, Brown's aircraft, the troops on the ground and the angle of the fatal bullet. It seems that it was almost certainly a shot from the ground that copped him.

Von Richtofen wanted his squadron's aircraft to be in pristine condition at all times, and was often heard to say how much he hated some of the dirty Fokkers in his unit.

Graham

[Archaic]

Hi, guys.

I thought it was finally settled that Snoopy killed the Red Baron?? They wrote a song and everything.
I inherited a warped 45 of The Royal Guardsmen doing this song; I think i still remember all the words.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq7HhGHKR4U&feature=related

There was an interesting documentary about this on the History Channel show 'Histories Mysteries' years ago which gave "credit" to Brown; not sure if it is available for viewing online, but it was pretty good. Film footage of Von Richtofen's funeral is available on YouTube, the Allies gave him a real hero's funeral.

Best regards, Archaic

[Graham]

"Curses - foiled again!"

von Graham

PS: as a bit of an aviation buff, I could never quite figure out why old von R was still flying a Fokker Triplane when the far superior Fokker DVII was available. Maybe he hadn't completed the payments on his Tripe, or something...

PPS: strange but true - Hermann Goering, who is remembered from WW2 as a fat and fairly useless Nazi slob was also a revered WW1 fighter-ace, complete with piercing blue eyes and an ankle-length leather coat. He flew a Fokker DVII, though.

[quasar]

Graham,

Agree.It would be folly to presume Richtofen was a Nazi when it was not the case.Some may even see it as an affront to him.Pilots on both sides were seen as heroes in an era when chivalry existed in the dogfighting.The Red Baron's reputation supercedes his nationality - although I must admit, unbiasedly, that I believe Rene Fonck to be the best fighter pilot of the era.

" Von Richtofen wanted his squadron's aircraft to be in pristine condition at all times". I won't hold that against him. Given the number of pilots who died from aircraft accidents, due to mechenical or structural failure, and the ' no parachute' deal of WW1, even before the real stress of combat its'self, I would want my machine in top nik at all times.

It was his choice not to fly the Fokker DVII, as he preferred the triplane. Horses for coarses I guess.I think the triplane suited his style of strategy when in combat. Is anyone going to step up and give thier own oppinion of what most likely happened? Thanks, Q.

[Graham]

" Von Richtofen wanted his squadron's aircraft to be in pristine condition at all times". I won't hold that against him. Given the number of pilots who died from aircraft accidents, due to mechenical or structural failure, and the ' no parachute' deal of WW1, even before the real stress of combat its'self, I would want my machine in top nik at all times.

Hi Quasar,

Er...there was a bit of juvenile smut in my note regarding dirty Fokkers...sorry.

Von R preferred the Fokker Triplane (Dr1) because it was extremely manoeverable compared with the Fokker DVII, but had an endearing tendency to lose one or more wings in a dive. However, it suited his mode of air-combat better than the DVII - he liked to 'split-arse' and get behind a pursuing aircraft and this the DVII apparently was rather slow to do. The DVII was one of the first cantilever (i.e., no bracing) winged fighters, and very strong and very fast.

Apparently, Roy Brown flying a Sopwith Camel got behind Von R at low level, and Von R didn't have enough altitude to reverse the situation. The low level combat left Von R vulnerable to small-arms fire from the ground - and even a lowly infantryman would have recognised Von R's Tripe as it was painted bright red all over.

Cheers,

Graham

[Graham]

Here are pix of the 3 aircraft types discussed.

Graham

No 1 = Fokker DVII
No 2 = Fokker Dr1 Triplane
No 3 = Sopwith Camel

[jason_c]

The flying ace hero worship was still strong in the Luftwaffe during WWII. I remember reading of a German pilot who shot down a huge number of British fighters over Crete(i think). Many members of his squadron however had to hold off shooting down British pilots so as this fighter ace could get more "kills".

Does anyone have more information on this?

[quasar]

Martinpaul12,

As with many famous people in history, the mythology industry started after his death. But I believe the most simple explination here to be the real truth.That is that Brown almost certainly shot him down.

Jason c'

I think the brilliant Hans Rudel began his career in Crete, but he was a Stuka pilot,so probably not him. It could well have been the talented Hans Joachim Marseille ,who's flying abilties were bordering on supernatural. He was certianly the best fighter pilot of WW2,and in my oppinion of all time, with 151 victories against quality opposition - British empire pilots. Even though the indefatigable Hartmann racked up 352 victories, they were against inferior , or obsolete, Soviet planes.

The majority of Marseille's victories were in the Noth African/Mediteranean theatre.So it was possible it was him.I would have to do a more in depth look to give you a definate answer.

The great irony with Marseille was his death. His engine simply overheated, and he botched a routine baleout by trying to be too clever. Q.

[BillyE]

Being an aviation buff I've always been interested in the WWI planes and flying aces, von Richthofen chief among them. Dispite what side a flying ace flew for they all earned each others' respect, and it almost didn't matter that they were at war with each other.

In respect to who shot von Richtofen down the credit usually goes to Captain Roy Brown of the Canadian Royal Air Force, however according to a Discovery Channel documentary "Unsolved History" it was most likely an Australian anti-aircraft gunman named "Snowey" Evans. I read the entries in this thread, and never saw his name in here. I just wanted him to get a mention in this thread as well.

[jason_c]

Martinpaul12,

As with many famous people in history, the mythology industry started after his death. But I believe the most simple explination here to be the real truth.That is that Brown almost certainly shot him down.

Jason c'

I think the brilliant Hans Rudel began his career in Crete, but he was a Stuka pilot,so probably not him. It could well have been the talented Hans Joachim Marseille ,who's flying abilties were bordering on supernatural. He was certianly the best fighter pilot of WW2,and in my oppinion of all time, with 151 victories against quality opposition - British empire pilots. Even though the indefatigable Hartmann racked up 352 victories, they were against inferior , or obsolete, Soviet planes.

The majority of Marseille's victories were in the Noth African/Mediteranean theatre.So it was possible it was him.I would have to do a more in depth look to give you a definate answer.

The great irony with Marseille was his death. His engine simply overheated, and he botched a routine baleout by trying to be too clever. Q.

Thanks for the info quasar, I look forward to any info you may find.

[belinda]

Well I don't know who done it but I have seen the Boots he was wearing when shot down.They are,not surprisingly,in the Australian War Memorial. I think they have some more of his things as well.

The soldiers started looting the body before he was fully dead apparently.

It's awful how war makes people behave

[Red Zeppelin]

The 'who shot the Red Baron' arguments reminds me of the great tank ace from WW2, Michael Wittmann (German Tiger tank ace). There is always an ongoing debate as to who actually finally finished Wittmann off in Normandy in '44. The discussions are always fascinating though.

[Steve S]

I wouldn't say the DVII was cantilever...Lots of bracing!...Now the DVIII,a high-wing monoplane is closer.......I think it was a 'secret history' programme that did the computer thing........
Steve