Madeleine McCann

[Sunny Delight]

closure for the mccans?!? tje only thing they deserve at the very least is a charge of child neglect and endangerment.

I am unsure how Portuguese law works but presumably if the Police had thought it possible they would have included this at the time the McCanns were made suspects or persons of interest. They didn't so as much as they probably should have been charged with that the ship has sailed.

At the end of the day I wouldn't dream of doing what all those parents did- not just the McCanns. In fact I wouldn't even put my child into a creche on holidays, for me a holiday is family time. If I had a 4 year old and two one year old twins I wouldn't even have went on holidays. Far too much hassle.

That all said I cannot begin to imagine the mental anguish of having your child disappear never to be found with the distinct possibility she waw taken by someone who meant her harm. No matter how much I dislike the McCanns they have paid a heavy price for their mistake. Their daughter paid the ultimate price. They have to live with that. At the end of the day that family went to Portugal as nobodies and came back at the centre of one of the greatest mysteries of all time. Your vitriol towards them is unhealthy 16 years later.

[Sunny Delight]

''Madeleine McCann to her mother on the morning before she disapeared: Mommy why didnt you come last night when we cried.

And what was the response? to go out again that night leaving her and her twin infant siblings alone and unattended to go get hammered with her friends and leaving the door unlocked. of a ground floor apartment with easy access to the road and a pool. in a foreign country''

We have no idea how accurate any of that is. There is some corroboration of the first claim- about the children crying- from a Mrs Fenn who lived in the same apartment block, although her version has been disputed.

We do not know if the apartment was locked or unlocked: the McCanns gave different accounts to family and to the police. We do not even know for sure that no one was with Madeleine McCann when she disappeared except from the account of the Tapas group.

Overall however, I agree. No parent would ever leave children as young as the McCanns were in an apartment block unless they knew the children would not awake. And as doctors they, along with their Tapas group, would have been able to do so. I think the PJ got it right: it was a tragic accident caused by parental selfishness.

Yeah I have seen this crackers theory advocated since Amarel came up with it. He has form for crackpot theories if Joanna Cipriano is anything to go by. So here Is the nub- if Madeleine McCann was the victim of an overdose clear up the following:

- Where was Madeleine's body kept in the initial hours? If she was dead by say 7pm what did Gerry and Kate do with her?

- Why then go public to the media the next day? The Police had told them explicitly no media. Surely keeping it all low key would have been in their interest?

- The dogs alerted to the McCanns car- a car that was rented 20 days after Madeleine's disappearance. The Police believe the McCanns must have kept her in a refrigerator in that time as otherwise the body would have been so badly decomposed. Do you think that is plausible? If so where was Madeleine's body stored?

Can you provide one scintilla of evidence for this theory that even makes sense?

[Pcdunn]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/22/europe/madeleine-mccann-new-search-intl/index.html

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

and this of course assuming they werent the ones who killed her, which is still an open question.
at the very least they are guilty of abuse, neglect and child endangerment.

No police force - British, German or Portuguese - regards either or both of Madeleine's parents to be suspects.

The question which you say is still open has long been closed.

No-one is seriously accusing them of abusing Madeleine either.

The Portuguese authorities issued a statement that Madeleine's parents were not guilty of any wrongdoing.

[cobalt]

Any statement made by the UK or Portuguese authorities has to be read with an understanding of the political implications of the case. The UK newspapers were very quick, even in these pre-Brexit times, to smear the Portuguese police as a bunch of Inspector Clouseaus out of their depth. The Portuguese authorities were very unhappy that their country was being viewed as an unsafe place to holiday in with children. Added to that was the direct involvement of recently appointed PM Gordon Brown who publicly expressed sympathy with the McCann family. (Brown had a public persona as a dour Scot and was keen to show his human face.)

Sunny Delight talks of a tragic accident as a ‘crackpot theory,’ despite the fact the main investigator reached this conclusion. The evidence to substantiate it relates to cadaver dogs reacting inside the apartment, as well as within the boot of a hired car, but that is not sufficient to bring charges obviously. However it’s more than a scintilla when taken in conjunction with the McCanns’ reported statements, and in the case of Kate McCann, non statement to the PJ.

Any other theory suffers from even less evidence than this. The idea that the McCanns left their apartment unlocked is fanciful, just as fanciful as their initial claim that an intruder came through a bedroom window. The PJ were able to establish that the latter was simply not possible. Buckled shutters and flapping window curtains therefore pointed to a staged construction by some person to confuse the police. Why an intruder, one who left no DNA at the scene, would wish to remove a girl from the apartment is not clear. If he wished her harm he could have done so in the bedroom. And why, having taken her from the apartment, it was necessary to hide the child so successfully that no trace of her has ever been found, is baffling.

[jason_c]

I'm on the fence as to whether the McCann's are responsible for their daughters death. I swing back and forth. I do tend to disagree more with those who are adamant of their innocence. When there is currently no perp I can't see how people can be so utterly convinced of the parent's innocence.

[Sunny Delight]

Any statement made by the UK or Portuguese authorities has to be read with an understanding of the political implications of the case. The UK newspapers were very quick, even in these pre-Brexit times, to smear the Portuguese police as a bunch of Inspector Clouseaus out of their depth. The Portuguese authorities were very unhappy that their country was being viewed as an unsafe place to holiday in with children. Added to that was the direct involvement of recently appointed PM Gordon Brown who publicly expressed sympathy with the McCann family. (Brown had a public persona as a dour Scot and was keen to show his human face.)

Sunny Delight talks of a tragic accident as a ‘crackpot theory,’ despite the fact the main investigator reached this conclusion. The evidence to substantiate it relates to cadaver dogs reacting inside the apartment, as well as within the boot of a hired car, but that is not sufficient to bring charges obviously. However it’s more than a scintilla when taken in conjunction with the McCanns’ reported statements, and in the case of Kate McCann, non statement to the PJ.

Any other theory suffers from even less evidence than this. The idea that the McCanns left their apartment unlocked is fanciful, just as fanciful as their initial claim that an intruder came through a bedroom window. The PJ were able to establish that the latter was simply not possible. Buckled shutters and flapping window curtains therefore pointed to a staged construction by some person to confuse the police. Why an intruder, one who left no DNA at the scene, would wish to remove a girl from the apartment is not clear. If he wished her harm he could have done so in the bedroom. And why, having taken her from the apartment, it was necessary to hide the child so successfully that no trace of her has ever been found, is baffling.

"Sunny Delight talks of a tragic accident as a ‘crackpot theory,’ despite the fact the main investigator reached this conclusion. The evidence to substantiate it relates to cadaver dogs reacting inside the apartment, as well as within the boot of a hired car, but that is not sufficient to bring charges obviously. However it’s more than a scintilla when taken in conjunction with the McCanns’ reported statements, and in the case of Kate McCann, non statement to the PJ."

No I don't talk of a tragic accident as a 'crackpot theory'. I talk of the questions I asked. None of which you have answered. The Casaver dogs reacted inside the apartment and within the boot of the hirer car. You do realise that dogs act as a prompt. Evidence is required to substantiate this as dogs can't talk. None was ever found. The car was hired 26 days after Madeleine McCann disappeared. In order to preserve her body before transporting it they would have had to get access to a fridge and put their daughters body in there for an extended period of time before retrieving it, transporting it and dumping it. That is what is crackpot. And the lead investigator had form in crackpot theories. He particularly seemed to be fixated on parents hiding the bodies of their dead children in refrigerators.

Joanna Cipriano was 8 years old and disappeared on the way home from the shops. This was 2004 and 11 miles from where Madeleine McCann later disappeared. Amarel was lead nvestigator. The Police settled on the theory that Joanna's daughter had witnessed her mother and uncle engage in incest and they had killed her to conceal this. Her body was cut up, placed in a fridge and then fed to the pigs. The only difference between the McCanns and the Ciprianos was no questions were asked if confessions were beaten out of the Ciprianos.

in regards DNA left at the scene the Police from the very beginning completely bungled their investigation. It took until 2014 for the man seen by Jane Tanner to be ruled out and eliminated and then it was by the MET. The scene of the crime had been contaminated by people coming in and out not too mention the sniffer dogs. Indeed 600 fibres were taken from the apartment the majority ended up being canine.

To my mind the most likely scenario is an intruder, possibly a thief who saw an opportunity and abducted Madeleine McCann. The MET during their investigatiom uncovered a number of robberies in the Ocean club in the weeks leading up to the disappearance. All had entered via the shutters and side window. Indeed in one case in the PJ files an elderly lady had disturbed a burglar in the act and thr same modus operandi had been used.

Have you ever heard of the murder of Aleisha McPhail in Scotland 2018?

On 2 July 2018, six-year-old Scottish girl Alesha Sarah MacPhail was abducted from her bed and murdered by 16-year-old Aaron Campbell. Alesha, from Airdrie, North Lanarkshire, was three days into a stay with her grandparents on the Isle of Bute when Campbell entered their unlocked home at approximately 02:00 am. The teenager had previously bought cannabis from Alesha's father Robert, who lived in the house, and initially went to steal the drug. Upon finding the child asleep, Campbell picked her up, carried her to an abandoned hotel, then raped and killed her by applying pressure to her face and neck. Alesha was reported missing at 06:23 gmt; her body was discovered by a member of the public at 08:54 gmt.

"All I thought about was killing her once I saw her."
Campbell lifted a drowsy MacPhail from her bed, left the house without anyone noticing, and walked with her along the ocean shore. The child awoke in his arms during this walk and asked who he was; Campbell replied that he knew her father and was taking her home.

I believe something similar happened to Madeleine McCann.

[Sunny Delight]

I'm on the fence as to whether the McCann's are responsible for their daughters death. I swing back and forth. I do tend to disagree more with those who are adamant of their innocence. When there is currently no perp I can't see how people can be so utterly convinced of the parent's innocence.

Because the theory behind it is utterly ridiculous. It should not even be given the time of day its so bonkers. My post above I think covers it. There are some people convinced of their guilt, usually the same people who are anti-vax or believe Trump really won. Some people you just can't reach with sensible conclusions.

[jason_c]

Because the theory behind it is utterly ridiculous. It should not even be given the time of day its so bonkers. My post above I think covers it. There are some people convinced of their guilt, usually the same people who are anti-vax or believe Trump really won. Some people you just can't reach with sensible conclusions.

I'm not sure there is a unifying theory behind the idea of the McCann's being guilty. I certainly wouldn't like to state with any degree of certainty how they accomplished it IF true. I just know that those telling me there is no way the McCann's are guilty when we have no body and no perp are being unreasonably stubborn. Which is not to say the opposing side are any less unreasonable.

Edit: on second thoughts I'm perhaps being a bit harsh on those who think the McCann's innocent. On balance the McCann's are probably innocent. However, I still cannot say that with any great conviction until we get ourselves a perp.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The car was hired 26 days after Madeleine McCann disappeared. In order to preserve her body before transporting it they would have had to get access to a fridge and put their daughters body in there for an extended period of time before retrieving it, transporting it and dumping it. That is what is crackpot.

They were accused of storing Madeleine's body in the fridge in their apartment, transporting her in the boot of their car while a journalist was travelling in it, and then dumping the body in the sea - all without anyone noticing.

Possibly the strangest aspect of the case is that no-one saw the parents do anything wrong or act suspiciously, yet they expected them to prove their innocence.

The case is remarkably similar to the notorious Chamberlain case in Australia, in which the parents lacked the opportunity to commit murder, had no motive, were never seen acting suspiciously or doing anything wrong, yet were convicted of a murder which had not even been committed.

In both cases, the mothers were demonised by the press and public alike and even after the Chamberlains' convictions were quashed, there were people who insisted that they were guilty.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

However it’s more than a scintilla when taken in conjunction with the McCanns’ reported statements, and in the case of Kate McCann, non statement to the PJ.

Kate McCann refused to answer questions which assumed her guilt.

I have read them.

I would have refused to answer them had I been in her position.

I hope and think that you would have done likewise.

[cobalt]

There’s a lot of crackpots and bonkers people around if SD is to be believed. There isn’t much mileage in pointing out as a revelation something which was established in a previous post: that any response by a cadaver dogs is indicative, not probative. I’m sure most of us are aware that cadaver dogs can’t talk but unlike people, they can’t lie either.

The PJ established that no one had entered through the bedroom window of the McCanns’ apartment. The undisturbed lichen on the window sill was noted very quickly so if an intruder did enter the property it was certainly not through the window. It’s possible that a thief struck lucky with an open door then turned his attentions to abduction instead, but the Alesha McPhail murder is not much use in supporting this scenario. The murderer, Campbell, did enter through an unlocked front door and he took the child from her bedroom to an abandoned property where he assaulted and killed her. However he took Alesha from the house because her grandmother was sleeping in another room and any activity would likely have woken her. This would not have been the case with Madeleine McCann. Since this happened around 2am, not 10pm, it is unsurprising no one spotted him carrying the girl away. And little attempt was made to hide the body of Alesha after his murderous instincts were satisfied- she was found soon after being reported missing. This is clearly not the case with Madeleine McCann.

I would describe a number of actions by the McCanns as suspicious but the most egregious is the claim by Kate McCann that her daughter had asked where her parents were the previous night when she, Madeleine, woke up and called for them. This disturbing admission (if true) did not prevent the parents going out and leaving the children the following evening. So not only did the McCanns consider leaving children under five alone in an apartment well within the bounds of responsible parenting, they continued to do so even after their daughter had reported feeling anxious when she awoke to find them absent. And to add to the suspicion, the McCanns enjoyed the company of parents who just happened to hold exactly the same views on child safety as themselves.

I take PI’s point about the McCanns having no need to prove their innocence but not all of the 48 questions put to Kate McCann were assuming her being guilty of anything. It’s widely accepted that in any murder case the police have to eliminate immediate family which can be a very distressing experience for those involved: the PJ would have been rightly criticised had they not attempted to do so.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Here are the last eight questions of the 48 put to Kate McCann:

41. Is it true that in England you even considered handing over Madeleine's custody to a relative?

42. In England, did you medicate your children? What type of medication?

43. In the case files, you were shown canine forensic testing films. After watching them, did you say you couldn't explain any more than you already had?

44. When the sniffer dog also marked human blood behind the sofa, did you say you couldn't explain any more than you already had?

45. When the sniffer dog marked the scent of corpse coming from the vehicle you hired a month after the disappearance, did you say you couldn't explain any more than you already had?

46. When human blood was marked in the boot of the vehicle, did you say you couldn't explain any more than you already had?

47. When confronted with the results of Maddie's DNA, carried out in a British lab, collected from behind the sofa and the boot of the vehicle, did you say you couldn't explain any more than you already had?

48. Did you have any responsibility or intervention in your daughter's disappearance?


I recall a comment by a woman online somewhere that any mother in Kate McCann's position who wanted to find her daughter would have answered those questions.

The police line of questioning could not have made it clearer that they believed Kate McCann was involved in her daughter's disappearance and even that she had possibly killed her.

Why should she have cooperated with such an approach?

[Sunny Delight]

There’s a lot of crackpots and bonkers people around if SD is to be believed. There isn’t much mileage in pointing out as a revelation something which was established in a previous post: that any response by a cadaver dogs is indicative, not probative. I’m sure most of us are aware that cadaver dogs can’t talk but unlike people, they can’t lie either.

The PJ established that no one had entered through the bedroom window of the McCanns’ apartment. The undisturbed lichen on the window sill was noted very quickly so if an intruder did enter the property it was certainly not through the window. It’s possible that a thief struck lucky with an open door then turned his attentions to abduction instead, but the Alesha McPhail murder is not much use in supporting this scenario. The murderer, Campbell, did enter through an unlocked front door and he took the child from her bedroom to an abandoned property where he assaulted and killed her. However he took Alesha from the house because her grandmother was sleeping in another room and any activity would likely have woken her. This would not have been the case with Madeleine McCann. Since this happened around 2am, not 10pm, it is unsurprising no one spotted him carrying the girl away. And little attempt was made to hide the body of Alesha after his murderous instincts were satisfied- she was found soon after being reported missing. This is clearly not the case with Madeleine McCann.

I would describe a number of actions by the McCanns as suspicious but the most egregious is the claim by Kate McCann that her daughter had asked where her parents were the previous night when she, Madeleine, woke up and called for them. This disturbing admission (if true) did not prevent the parents going out and leaving the children the following evening. So not only did the McCanns consider leaving children under five alone in an apartment well within the bounds of responsible parenting, they continued to do so even after their daughter had reported feeling anxious when she awoke to find them absent. And to add to the suspicion, the McCanns enjoyed the company of parents who just happened to hold exactly the same views on child safety as themselves.

I take PI’s point about the McCanns having no need to prove their innocence but not all of the 48 questions put to Kate McCann were assuming her being guilty of anything. It’s widely accepted that in any murder case the police have to eliminate immediate family which can be a very distressing experience for those involved: the PJ would have been rightly criticised had they not attempted to do so.

Your initial post queried why anyone would remove the child from the bedroom if they were intent on indulging their depraved fantasies. If this was a robbery which acted as an inadvertent opportunity for such a person then they would be aware that there was a possibility of someone returning and catching them in the act. What the Aleisha McPhail case shows is that this type of incident is very spur of the moment and therefore it is extremely difficult to pre-empt someones thought processes in that moment. As I say the likeliest solution is that the perpetrator feared someone returning.

By the time the 48 questions were put to Kate they were suspects. I don't blame her for stonewalling them. I would have as well. They were a disgrace. If you believe in the Cavidar dog evidence then answer the question how and when did the McCanns dispose of Madeleine's body. If the dogs are to be believed they waited at least 26 days before doing so. Where was the body stored in that time? You see it's easy to pick fairly superficial evidence and try to use it as something stronger but once you dig into it the whole thing falls apart.

The fact that Madeleine woke up and had asked her parents why they had not comforted the babies when crying the night before is not reflective of any guilt. Sure they went out the next night and and I think any right minded person would find that sickening. Indeed I find it disgraceful to treat your children like that even if you did have periodic checks on them. They were off drinking wine and enjoying themselves whilst their kids were alone in the apartment. Ridiculous behaviour. However it does not prove that they killed Madeleine nor does it even remotely suggest they had anything to do with her disappearance. I think we can all make our own judgements on their actions that night. But they paid the ultimate price. And so did their daughter.

[ohrocky]

I think it extremely unlikely that the McCann's killed Maddie or had any involvement in her disappearance. What I am 100% certain of though is that the McCann's were guilty of child neglect. They are not fit and proper parents; they abandoned a young child in a strange apartment in a foreign country just so they could go and get p*ssed.

Had the McCann's been working class manual workers rather than middle-class "professionals", I am certain that social services would have been all over them. They should have had Maddie's siblings taken into care as they clearly prioritised going out drinking over caring for their child (who, as reported, was upset when her parents had done the same thing the previous night).

The parents are the people who will not be blamed for nothing.