Madeleine McCann

[Geddy2112]

The question is will 'they' ever be accountable for anything?

[Henry Flower]

Hi JohnG
I think what Henry was saying is that if the parents are dumb enough to leave their children alone in those circumstances, their dumb enough to give them a sedative.

More or less, yes. I think the way I'd phrase it is this:

Its accepted by everyone that they knowingly and recklessly endangered their kids for the sake of having a fun night. It seems strange to accept that they did that with one set of actions, but to rule out the possibility of other actions on the basis that those actions would've knowingly and recklessly endangered the kids.....

[louisa]

Why can't you see the parents being paedophiles? Other posters have outlined the problems with the theory that they drugged the children. That leaves very few other possibilities. Maddie died in some bizarre accident and the parents covered it up. Maddie died at the hands of one or both parents as the result of physical abuse and that was covered up. Maddie was kidnapped. A few other scenario's I'm really not sure what. Scenario's involving the parents being paedophiles.

I think you're being extremely naive thinking most paedo's are lone men. Most sexual abuse that happens to children is by someone they know, this doesn't really fit with the idea that most paedo's are lone men. They tend to be trusted family members or close family friends.

I think they were simply two people who wanted to keep their kids in bed - fast asleep - while they went out on the razzle with their friends. Drugs were the only way of ensuring the children would stay asleep for a good few hours.

They were two doctors who got a bit too sure of themselves and thought they knew all about drugs.

I think if Maddie's body had been found the pathologist would have found needle marks on her. It's a pity the twins weren't looked at more closely.

[John Wheat]

The question is will 'they' ever be accountable for anything?

I think that's unlikely at this stage. They should have been charged with child neglect and I suggest they would have been had they been working class.

[John Wheat]

I think they were simply two people who wanted to keep their kids in bed - fast asleep - while they went out on the razzle with their friends. Drugs were the only way of ensuring the children would stay asleep for a good few hours.

They were two doctors who got a bit too sure of themselves and thought they knew all about drugs.

I think if Maddie's body had been found the pathologist would have found needle marks on her. It's a pity the twins weren't looked at more closely.

Of course that's a possibility Louisa but I'm with Henry it is about the most palatable scenario and so maybe that's the one many believe.

Cheers John

[John G]

Personally, I just don't see that there's any viable evidence for the McCann's being involved in their daughters death. Thus, a major problem for such a theory is: what did they do with the remains, considering they've never been found and, for the McCann's this was a foreign country that they we're relatively unfamiliar with. I mean, it's not as if there's any evidence of Gerry hiring out a JCB digger or even purchasing a spade!

And then, presumably, there would have to be a major conspiracy involving the so-called Tapas 7. However, I consider it unlikely in the extreme that they would all have agreed to such a thing and, moreover, that after almost a decade not one person would have broken ranks.

And how did Gerry convince all of them to keep quiet, and possibly even play an active role in assisting with the disposal of the remains?

For some people the strongest evidence is provided by dog handler Martin Grime and his dippy dog, Eddie. Thus, apparently the dog detected blood and the odour of a human corpse.

However, there are serious problems with this argument. Firstly, the McCann's are both doctors, and Kate in particular frequently came into contact with corpses. Therefore, the odour may have eminated from them.

Secondly, in the Zapata case three sniffer dogs were found to be very unreliable, and evidence obtained in this way was excluded by the judge: they were found to be incorrect respectively 78, 71 and 62 per cent of the time.

Thirdly, there's the Jersey House of Horrors case, where Eddie, the McCann's case cadaver dog, once again had "extremely strong" reactions. However, only animal bones were discovered, apart from possibly three human bones, and they dated from 1470-1670. And a child's skull" that Eddy had an "extremely strong" reaction to turned out to be a piece of Victorian coconut shell!

And, according to an official police report, from the National Police Improvement Agency, police sniffer dogs urgently need better training and monitoring.

Perhaps not surprisingly, following the care home debacle, Eddie is no longer working for the police.

[John Wheat]

Personally, I just don't see that there's any viable evidence for the McCann's being involved in their daughters death. Thus, a major problem for such a theory is: what did they do with the remains, considering they've never been found and, for the McCann's this was a foreign country that they we're relatively unfamiliar with. I mean, it's not as if there's any evidence of Gerry hiring out a JCB digger or even purchasing a spade!

And then, presumably, there would have to be a major conspiracy involving the so-called Tapas 7. However, I consider it unlikely in the extreme that they would all have agreed to such a thing and, moreover, that after almost a decade not one person would have broken ranks.

And how did Gerry convince all of them to keep quiet, and possibly even play an active role in assisting with the disposal of the remains?

For some people the strongest evidence is provided by dog handler Martin Grime and his dippy dog, Eddie. Thus, apparently the dog detected blood and the odour of a human corpse.

However, there are serious problems with this argument. Firstly, the McCann's are both doctors, and Kate in particular frequently came into contact with corpses. Therefore, the odour may have eminated from them.

Secondly, in the Zapata case three sniffer dogs were found to be very unreliable, and evidence obtained in this way was excluded by the judge: they were found to be incorrect respectively 78, 71 and 62 per cent of the time.

Thirdly, there's the Jersey House of Horrors case, where Eddie, the McCann's case cadaver dog, once again had "extremely strong" reactions. However, only animal bones were discovered, apart from possibly three human bones, and they dated from 1470-1670. And a child's skull" that Eddy had an "extremely strong" reaction to turned out to be a piece of Victorian coconut shell!

And, according to an official police report, from the National Police Improvement Agency, police sniffer dogs urgently need better training and monitoring.

Perhaps not surprisingly, following the care home debacle, Eddie is no longer working for the police.

You are right John there is no evidence to say the Gerry and Kate were involved in Maddie's death however there seems to be very little evidence of anything. If Gerry and Kate were involved in Maddie's death I suggest they are likely to be the only one's who know about it with maybe one other person having knowledge of it.

Cheers John

[John G]

You are right John there is no evidence to say the Gerry and Kate were involved in Maddie's death however there seems to be very little evidence of anything. If Gerry and Kate were involved in Maddie's death I suggest they are likely to be the only one's who know about it with maybe one other person having knowledge of it.

Cheers John

Thanks John. Unfortunately there's an enormous amount of false and misleading information about this case, including the bizarre argument that Calpol, a paracetamol, was used as a sleeping aid!

Of course, the real problem is the totally incompetent Portuguese police investigation. Not only did they fail to secure the crime scene-even allowing the apartment to be let out to tourists before the forensic tests were complete-undermining, and perhaps even destroying, forensic evidence that may have been present, the officer who dusted for fingerprints didn't even bother to wear gloves or other protective clothing! I mean, talk about the Keystone Cops!

[John Wheat]

Thanks John. Unfortunately there's an enormous amount of false and misleading information about this case, including the bizarre argument that Calpol, a paracetamol, was used as a sleeping aid!

Of course, the real problem is the totally incompetent Portuguese police investigation. Not only did they fail to secure the crime scene-even allowing the apartment to be let out to tourists before the forensic tests were complete-undermining, and perhaps even destroying, forensic evidence that may have been present, the officer who dusted for fingerprints didn't even bother to wear gloves or other protective clothing! I mean, talk about the Keystone Cops!

I agree with you John the Portuguese Police have completely failed Maddie. The whole thing is a tragedy.

Cheers John

[Abby Normal]

Personally, I just don't see that there's any viable evidence for the McCann's being involved in their daughters death. Thus, a major problem for such a theory is: what did they do with the remains, considering they've never been found and, for the McCann's this was a foreign country that they we're relatively unfamiliar with. I mean, it's not as if there's any evidence of Gerry hiring out a JCB digger or even purchasing a spade!


For some people the strongest evidence is provided by dog handler Martin Grime and his dippy dog, Eddie. Thus, apparently the dog detected blood and the odour of a human corpse.

However, there are serious problems with this argument. Firstly, the McCann's are both doctors, and Kate in particular frequently came into contact with corpses. Therefore, the odour may have eminated from them.

Secondly, in the Zapata case three sniffer dogs were found to be very unreliable, and evidence obtained in this way was excluded by the judge: they were found to be incorrect respectively 78, 71 and 62 per cent of the time.

Thirdly, there's the Jersey House of Horrors case, where Eddie, the McCann's case cadaver dog, once again had "extremely strong" reactions. However, only animal bones were discovered, apart from possibly three human bones, and they dated from 1470-1670. And a child's skull" that Eddy had an "extremely strong" reaction to turned out to be a piece of Victorian coconut shell!

And, according to an official police report, from the National Police Improvement Agency, police sniffer dogs urgently need better training and monitoring.

Perhaps not surprisingly, following the care home debacle, Eddie is no longer working for the police.

Hi JohnG
Thanks for posting this-I did not know about all this. however...

However, there are serious problems with this argument. Firstly, the McCann's are both doctors, and Kate in particular frequently came into contact with corpses. Therefore, the odour may have eminated from them.

when was the last time they had been around a corpse? I find it hard to believe this-surely there clothes had been washed at least a couple of times, and they had bathed, and been in a pool and or ocean?? would corpse scent still be detectable many days, cleanings and swimming later? don't think so.

there's the Jersey House of Horrors case, where Eddie, the McCann's case cadaver dog, once again had "extremely strong" reactions. However, only animal bones were discovered, apart from possibly three human bones, and they dated from 1470-1670. And a child's skull" that Eddy had an "extremely strong" reaction to turned out to be a piece of Victorian coconut shell!

but there were TWO dogs involved-Eddie the cadaver dog and another- Keela-a human blood sniffer dog.

Keela alerted to human blood inside the apartment by/on the couch and on the master bedroom deck.

also, they were taken to various other locations-other aprtments, the beach, another suspects and the dogs only alerted to the Mccanns apartment and the car. Even if you rule out Eddie, you still have the other dog. and taken all they did, it still seems to lean in the direction of death/murder in the apartment.

And then, presumably, there would have to be a major conspiracy involving the so-called Tapas 7. However, I consider it unlikely in the extreme that they would all have agreed to such a thing and, moreover, that after almost a decade not one person would have broken ranks.

And how did Gerry convince all of them to keep quiet, and possibly even play an active role in assisting with the disposal of the remains?

I don't think they needed to know anything about it. the parent/s killed her during the day and dumped her somewhere-the ocean, beach who knows? then went to the bar and tried to arrange it so someone else would find her missing. when the morons didn't even check properly, kate eventually was forced to make the "discovery". Its uncannily similar to the ramseys setting it up so that someone else would discover the problem.
classic guilty behavior especially involving a family member.

[louisa]

As for "they were doctors so would have been around corpses" - I very much doubt if GPs, in the normal run of things, would be having much to do with corpses. It wasn't as if they were pathologists in a hospital.

In my experience a GP gets called when somebody dies and then they look at the body, sometimes take a pulse and then announce "Death is extinct" and off they go - charging the family £100 for signing a death certificate.

I can't see a GP would have the odour of corpses on them, and especially while they are on holiday.

[John G]

Hi JohnG
Thanks for posting this-I did not know about all this. however...



when was the last time they had been around a corpse? I find it hard to believe this-surely there clothes had been washed at least a couple of times, and they had bathed, and been in a pool and or ocean?? would corpse scent still be detectable many days, cleanings and swimming later? don't think so.



but there were TWO dogs involved-Eddie the cadaver dog and another- Keela-a human blood sniffer dog.

Keela alerted to human blood inside the apartment by/on the couch and on the master bedroom deck.

also, they were taken to various other locations-other aprtments, the beach, another suspects and the dogs only alerted to the Mccanns apartment and the car. Even if you rule out Eddie, you still have the other dog. and taken all they did, it still seems to lean in the direction of death/murder in the apartment.



I don't think they needed to know anything about it. the parent/s killed her during the day and dumped her somewhere-the ocean, beach who knows? then went to the bar and tried to arrange it so someone else would find her missing. when the morons didn't even check properly, kate eventually was forced to make the "discovery". Its uncannily similar to the ramseys setting it up so that someone else would discover the problem.
classic guilty behavior especially involving a family member.

Hi Abby,

You make a fair point about Keela, the blood dog. However, apparently this dog is able to detect human blood on items that have been washed or cleaned many times: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...Madeleine.html

Another problem with British sniffer dogs is that they're not trained to approved standards, so there's no way of gauging their competence-in fact, Eddie doesn't seem very competent at all! There's also no national standard for accrediting these dogs and handlers, or for monitoring their success rate.

Also, as regards the blood evidence, no blood was ever discovered forensically in either the apparent or boot of the car. In fact, no cellular DNA was positively identified as Madeleine's, although the DNA of one of the Portuguese forensic technicians was identified!

The window of opportunity for the McCann's to have disposed of a body-in a foreign country and so effectively that it's never been found-is extremely tight. For instance, Maddie was seen at a kids' club until around 5:30, and Gerry then had a tennis game that lasted from 6:00pm until 7:00pm. Then, at around 8:30, they went for lunch with their friends.

Crucially, during this critical period, i.e. after 7:00pm, not a single witness saw either Gerry or Kate driving off, or returning by car; and, if they had any involvement, they must surely have used a vehicle.

[John G]

Concerning the reliability of Keela, the blood dog. According to Martin Grimes' [the handler] report, the dog alerted to the curtain area, and "this would indicate to the likely presence of human blood." http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic35.html

However, the problem is the curtains were forensically examined and no traces of blood were found: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

You make a fair point about Keela, the blood dog. However, apparently this dog is able to detect human blood on items that have been washed or cleaned many times: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...Madeleine.html

Another problem with British sniffer dogs is that they're not trained to approved standards, so there's no way of gauging their competence-in fact, Eddie doesn't seem very competent at all! There's also no national standard for accrediting these dogs and handlers, or for monitoring their success rate.

Also, as regards the blood evidence, no blood was ever discovered forensically in either the apparent or boot of the car. In fact, no cellular DNA was positively identified as Madeleine's, although the DNA of one of the Portuguese forensic technicians was identified!

The window of opportunity for the McCann's to have disposed of a body-in a foreign country and so effectively that it's never been found-is extremely tight. For instance, Maddie was seen at a kids' club until around 5:30, and Gerry then had a tennis game that lasted from 6:00pm until 7:00pm. Then, at around 8:30, they went for lunch with their friends.

Crucially, during this critical period, i.e. after 7:00pm, not a single witness saw either Gerry or Kate driving off, or returning by car; and, if they had any involvement, they must surely have used a vehicle.

no I agree, it would have been tight. but the beach/ocean was only a few blocks away. and I don't think they even necessarily needed a car. they could have just carried her or put her in a suitcase or duffle bag.

don't get me wrong--I think its totally possible she was abducted, I just lean towrd the parents at this time. as with the ramseys I'm at about 30/70 between intruder vs parents.

[Henry Flower]

I think the evidence of the dogs is valid - the fact that they corroborated each other in the location behind the sofa, and the fact that they didn't alert in any other apartment or home, or near any other cars.

Kate has never found anyone to corroborate the story that she had been in contact with no fewer than 6 corpses shortly before her holiday

Kate's actions immediately following her discovery are massive red flags: leaving the twins unattended, IMMEDIATELY assuming and very noisily announcing an abduction rather than the more likely scenario of Madeleine wandering off in search of her parents

The fact that not one but several family members and friends were immediately told the shutters had been smashed or jemmied, which was simply not true

The fact that Kate invented a story about the curtains whooshing up into the air when she opened the door, whereas police crime scene photos showed them very neatly tucked down between the bed and the wall. Did she tuck them in herself before calling police? Or is she making up stories?

Refused a polygraph.

Refused to answer questions.

Immediately sought to dismiss the sniffer dogs evidence instead of being frantic with worry wanting to know if it was true.

As a father there is no way I would've fled the country on being made arguido. I would've stayed and done everything possible to cooperate and clear my name in order to focus police on other suspects. I could never have come home and abandoned what I thought was my missing child.