Madeleine McCann

[Abby Normal]

They knew the kids wouldn't wake up and come looking for them because they had probably given them enough sedatives to last at least until the following morning.

Kate already stated that Maddie had woken up the previous night and cried for her mum. (Kate is on a YouTube video saying this) so she probably made a mental note to give her a bit more sedative that evening before the couple went out.

I think Maddie died that night. Parents would have to be extremely callous to be able to go out on the razzle knowing their child was dead, hidden somewhere in the apartment.

I think Maddie's death was an accident, an accidental overdose.

Hi Louisa
Yes I think the overdose scenario is very plausible. In this scenario when did they discover she was dead, when/how did they get rid of the body. What's the timeline etc?

[John Wheat]

I'm thinking Maddie was killed/died perhaps earlier in the day after she was picked up from the kids club by the mom while jerry was at a tennis lesson before they went to dinner.

the dog alerted to the rug behind the couch. Mom killed her either accidently in a fit of anger, and or during sexual abuse, or killed her on purpose (planned).Probably on or around the couch.

even if the parents didn't kill her (small chance IMHO) they are responsible for her disappearance by leaving her alone and should be charged with, at the very least, child neglect.

you don't leave a THREE year old, and two babies no less, alone---in a strange apartment---in a foreign country!?!

There is so many things wrong with that and could go wrong its unbeleiveable. Hell, she even admitted the night before that Maddie had cried out and wondered where she was! and they still go out?
How did they know she wouldn't wake up again and wander outside looking for them and drown in the pool?

cold callous selfish pieces of **** at the very least!!!
child molesters and murderers at worst.

I hope they rot in hell.
they can have tapas and wine with the Ramseys there.

I agree with you Abby. Maddy's Death is there fault even if she was abducted. You don't leave young children alone while you go out boozing. It would be interesting to find out what actually happened and then what public opinions of Kate and Jerry was. I would also like to see them punished for what they did. Wether that was neglect or something much worse. I doubt they will ever be held accountable and I doubt we will ever know what actually happened though.
Cheers John

[Henry Flower]

I agree with you Abby. Maddy's Death is there fault even if she was abducted. You don't leave young children alone while you go out boozing. It would be interesting to find out what actually happened and then what public opinions of Kate and Jerry was. I would also like to see them punished for what they did. Wether that was neglect or something much worse. I doubt they will ever be held accountable and I doubt we will ever know what actually happened though.
Cheers John

If a story sounds too crappy to be true it often is. I wonder if we're being taken in too easily. How solid is the only evidence that kids were left alone and checked on? Despite telling their family that the window blinds were smashed or forced, they changed their story to intruder entry through unlocked patio when it became clear there had been no intruder through the window. Don't forget, they originally claimed they (K or G) entered to check on the kids through the locked front door.

It is, on the face of it, so reckless as to be implausible, this idea that they left three kids of that age alone at night in an unlocked apartment in a foreign country. So maybe they didn't. Maybe that's the scenario they need us to believe in order to make an abductor story possible. Without that scenario they will have to fake a forced entry and explain why it didn't wake Kate and Gerry up. If they needed to stage an abduction, almost the only way to do it quietly and simply is to be out of the apartment, and for the apartment to be unlocked.

But maybe I'm overthinking.

[Hannibal Hayes]

I don’t have the time to read all the posts unfortunately & I’m aware that this is covering old ground but I need to clarify a couple of points.

There were 6 other people(?) present with the McCann’s & my understanding is that they took it in turns to check on all of the children?

This has been covered I know (I can’t find the post) but presumably, one of the parents who went to check before Kate can confirm that Madeline was in the apartment at say, 9pm? Unless only Kate went to check but knew along that Madeline wasn’t there & waited for the appropriate time (after they’d been out for a while) to report her missing.

There seem to be opinions that Madeline died a day or so earlier & was either dumped at sea or buried. Either option seems difficult to me – how would you take a body out to sea without anyone noticing? Likewise, how would you bury a body without someone seeing you? In a popular tourist destination?

If you are on holiday with a few other couples & don’t spend every moment with them, would you be able to say for definite when you last saw one of their children? If for example, she died a couple of days before she went missing, with a bit of manipulation, could they have got away with no-one asking where she was?

The DNA in the boot of the car doesn’t seem that important. DNA from anyone in a hire car would seem feasible to me.

More odd is the fact that Madeline didn’t have her own toothbrush but shared one with her sister. Does anyone else reading this (who has two children) do that? Seems disgusting to me! This would seem to delay the investigation as no DNA was available.

How much did the McCann’s have to drink that night? Were they: really drunk/drunk/tipsy/sober?

Ideally I’d like responses from people who know & not from people who have just read posts & consider them to contain true facts …….

Apologies if this has been covered (I’m sure it has).

[louisa]

This has always been my theory...

The McCanns left their children 'home alone' while they went out drinking (9 bottles between 7 people) at a tapas bar. They periodically return to check on them.

Kate returns, finds Madeleine missing and shouts over the balcony "She's been taken!".

Considering the McCanns had left the doors unlocked would she not have assumed that the little girl had woken up, got out of bed and wandered off on her own? No, Kate said she had 'been taken'.

Then all the panic begins, the police are called, people are milling about inside the apartment, contaminating a potential crime scene.

Now here is the strangest part.........the McCann's other children - twins - remain fast asleep the entire time and end up being carried out to another venue, still asleep.

The next day while the police and hundreds of others are searching for little Maddie, her mother goes jogging on the beach, Gerry plays tennis.

My theory is that the McCann's had left the children alone on previous occasions and no harm had come to them.

There is a YouTube interview with Kate where she says that Maddie had woken up the previous night crying and asking where her mother was.

I believe that on the night she 'went missing' her parents had given her - and the twins - a small amount of drugs to keep them asleep while they went out. When Kate returned from the tapas bar she could not revive Maddie - she had given her too much of whatever drug she used, maybe morphine?

Her friends covered up, one of them taking Maddie's body into his own apartment. He had a boat and took her onto that boat the next day and dropped her into the sea.

Kate and Gerry had to cover it all up because they knew their careers would be at an end if the truth came out. "Doctors killed their own child with drugs"

There are a lot of interviews with both Gerry and Kate and not a single tear is shed. In one interview Gerry is asked "Do you have any guilt over Madeleine's disappearance?" His answer "None whatsoever".

When the couple were subpoenaed to return to Portugal they were asked over 40 questions by the police. They answered "No comment" to every single one, even the one where they were asked if they killed their daughter.

One of the questions was "Is it true that you were trying to get a female relative to adopt Maddie because you could no longer cope with her?"

"No comment" was her answer.

.

[Henry Flower]

I don’t have the time to read all the posts unfortunately & I’m aware that this is covering old ground but I need to clarify a couple of points.

There were 6 other people(?) present with the McCann’s & my understanding is that they took it in turns to check on all of the children?

That's their story, the McCann friends who refused to go back to Portugal to take part in a reenactment to nail down a timeline of events, but who had written down two different timelines for police before the police arrived. Fact.

This has been covered I know (I can’t find the post) but presumably, one of the parents who went to check before Kate can confirm that Madeline was in the apartment at say, 9pm? Unless only Kate went to check but knew along that Madeline wasn’t there & waited for the appropriate time (after they’d been out for a while) to report her missing.

David Payne claims he went to check on Kate and the kids while Gerry played tennis at about 6.30. He gives two completely different reasons for having done so. He and Kate disagree irreconcilably in their testimony concerning how long he spent at the apartment. His description of seeing the children is faltering, hesitant, monumentally vague and utterly generic. David Payne was the man making pedophilic suggestive comments to Gerry about Madeleine on an earlier group holiday, according to the Gaspar statement.

Gerry checked the apartment and used the toilet shortly after 9. He asserts he saw all three kids sleeping and told himself how blessed he was to have such beautiful children.

Matt Oldfield went to check at about 9.30. It is reasonably clear from his testimony that he did not actually see Madeleine, but glanced into the room and took the kids to be sleeping peacefully. Only the very foot of Madeleine's bed was visible unless you actually entered the room.

Kate went to the apartment at 10, and 'found' Madeleine missing. She was puzzled that the door was not in the position 'we' had left it in, despite knowing that not one but two people had been back to the apartment since she was last there. She later added an account of the breeze from the window swinging the door closed, and then whooshing the curtains up as she entered, despite police photos showing the curtains tucked firmly and neatly down between the bed and the wall. Despite knowing that Madeleine had been awake and crying for her the previous night, Kate immediately assumes she has been abducted by pedos and runs back to the tapas bar screaming that 'they' have 'taken' her.

There seem to be opinions that Madeline died a day or so earlier & was either dumped at sea or buried. Either option seems difficult to me – how would you take a body out to sea without anyone noticing?

Put your 'gear' in a bag and hire a boat. It's a seaside resort.

Likewise, how would you bury a body without someone seeing you? In a popular tourist destination?

By driving it somewhere secluded at night, rather than burying it in the town square at midday, for instance?

If you are on holiday with a few other couples & don’t spend every moment with them, would you be able to say for definite when you last saw one of their children? If for example, she died a couple of days before she went missing, with a bit of manipulation, could they have got away with no-one asking where she was?

There is no account of any moment when both parents and all three kids are seen together for the last couple of days of their 'family' holiday.

The DNA in the boot of the car doesn’t seem that important. DNA from anyone in a hire car would seem feasible to me.

Wow. Just wow. It was inconclusive, but there were 15 of Madeleine's 19 DNA peaks in that DNA. Not that important I guess.....

More odd is the fact that Madeline didn’t have her own toothbrush but shared one with her sister. Does anyone else reading this (who has two children) do that? Seems disgusting to me! This would seem to delay the investigation as no DNA was available.

And yet it wouldn't be odd to find it in a hire car hired weeks later?

How much did the McCann’s have to drink that night? Were they: really drunk/drunk/tipsy/sober?

Ideally I’d like responses from people who know & not from people who have just read posts & consider them to contain true facts …….

Apologies if this has been covered (I’m sure it has).

It's enough to arouse suspicion at the least, isn't it?

[Abby Normal]

It's enough to arouse suspicion at the least, isn't it?

Hi Henry

There is no account of any moment when both parents and all three kids are seen together for the last couple of days of their 'family' holiday.

Didn't Kate pick her up from the resort kids club at approx. 6:00PM that night?
Wouldn't that be the last time anyone(one of the kids club workers) other than parents saw her?

at this time Gerry was playing tennis and then returned and they put the kids to bed at 7:00 pm and then both went to the tapas bar at 8:30.

so wouldn't that timeline mean, if the parents did it, that her death/murder and hiding/disposing of her body MUST have occurred between 6-8:30 that night????

David Payne claims he went to check on Kate and the kids while Gerry played tennis at about 6.30. He gives two completely different reasons for having done so. He and Kate disagree irreconcilably in their testimony concerning how long he spent at the apartment. His description of seeing the children is faltering, hesitant, monumentally vague and utterly generic. David Payne was the man making pedophilic suggestive comments to Gerry about Madeleine on an earlier group holiday, according to the Gaspar statement.

why would he have to check on her at 6:30? wasn't Kate in the apartment with Maddie at that time?

[Hannibal Hayes]

Put your 'gear' in a bag and hire a boat. It's a seaside resort.

You can't tell me that the person they hired the boat from wouldn't have come forward. It's not like the case wasn't publicised.

The DNA was inconclusive. No buts .... There isn't anything else to say on that. It's either her DNA or it isn't! My point was, it wouldn't be a surprise to find Madeline's, or anyone else from the family's, DNA in the car. It's not a case of 'Maddie's DNA is in the boot - she must have been transported that way'.

Of course it raises suspicion - the whole thing stinks - but my point is that everything at this point is inconclusive.

Their other two children will read everything they can about their sister on the internet - maybe even this site - & will realise how lucky they are & wonder whether their parents are good parents. Only time will tell whether this will affect them mentally in years to come. Whatever they think, there will always be that small doubt in their minds ....

[Joshua Rogan]

Wasn't the car hired nearly a month after Maddie's disappearance?

[louisa]

The demeanour of the parents was something that made me look at them more closely.

Gerry was defensive and Kate just looked like a limp rag, and neither ever shed a tear.

Guilt would have been a natural thing for the couple to feel. Guilt that they left their children alone to fend for themselves. Emergencies can happen.

Children rely on their parents to keep them safe. They can't do it for themselves.

And, if they HAD to leave their children alone (and we know they didn't have to) - then leaving the doors unlocked was pure madness.

And they feel no guilt?
.

[Abby Normal]

Wasn't the car hired nearly a month after Maddie's disappearance?

that is correct. the theory being they hid her dead body somewhere and then later used the rented car to move it.

[louisa]

that is correct. the theory being they hid her dead body somewhere and then later used the rented car to move it.

I don't think the McCann's would have been so smugly confident if they thought there was a chance that Maddie's body could be found - this is why I think her body was dumped far out in the sea.

The McCanns knew that tracker dogs were being used in the hunt.

[Henry Flower]

Put your 'gear' in a bag and hire a boat. It's a seaside resort.

You can't tell me that the person they hired the boat from wouldn't have come forward. It's not like the case wasn't publicised.

The DNA was inconclusive. No buts .... There isn't anything else to say on that. It's either her DNA or it isn't! My point was, it wouldn't be a surprise to find Madeline's, or anyone else from the family's, DNA in the car. It's not a case of 'Maddie's DNA is in the boot - she must have been transported that way'.

Of course it raises suspicion - the whole thing stinks - but my point is that everything at this point is inconclusive.

Their other two children will read everything they can about their sister on the internet - maybe even this site - & will realise how lucky they are & wonder whether their parents are good parents. Only time will tell whether this will affect them mentally in years to come. Whatever they think, there will always be that small doubt in their minds ....

I'm slightly confused about the DNA I'll admit. Legally it's inconclusive, but my understanding is it's not possible to say whether it's hers or not, and it might be. It had 15 of her 19 peaks, which is good enough for a court in many countries, but the complication was that up to three people could've contributed to that profile, and those same peaks could've resulted from a mixed sample of Kate and Gerry's. That, at any rate, is my layman's understanding of what I've read, and I'd welcome confirmation or correction from someone more knowledgeable on that subject - did it definitely come from three people, or was it merely a possibility? If it did come from three people then is the presence of 15 peaks corresponding to Madeleine's DNA definitively a mere coincidence? If it came from three individuals then could one of the individuals be Madeleine or is that impossible? I'm not a DNA guy.

Your point about the twins is well made and very poignant. I hope they thrive and prosper. Hopefully their age at the time gives them an advantage in moving past the tragedy.

[barnflatwyngarde]

TED Talk: Body Language and the McCanns

Check out this fascinating little video which uses a TED talk on body language and lying in relation to the behaviour and language of Kate and Gerry McCann.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvU9fgMi3Kw

[louisa]

Check out this fascinating little video which uses a TED talk on body language and lying in relation to the behaviour and language of Kate and Gerry McCann.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvU9fgMi3Kw

Thanks for posting that, it was very interesting, especially if you scroll along to 5.25 - the part where Kate tells us that Maddie woke up the previous night crying. Doesn't that tell us something? My theory is the parents weren't going to risk that happening again - they were intending to go out on the razzle with their mates again that evening as well.