Madeleine McCann

[Maria]

Anna:

You also want to ignore the other abductions ( four ) that have taken place in the area.

The parents of those other disappeared children are important as well. Just because they do not have the financial resources the McCann´s have, does not make their cases less important.

Some people are racist and only see what happens to their own without looking at the wider area of what has been happening around there and are oblibious to paedophiles rings or child abductions which are highly lucrative in the black market.

I have no idea why do you welcome me in private when you are clearly not happy to talk to me.

Maria

[Limehouse]

How did the other abductions happen I wonder? Were the children left alone in a room without supervision for long periods? Were local people aware of the abuctions? It's strange they haven't mentioned them in relation to the McCann case.

I do not believe for one minute that the McCanns accidently or purposefully killed their daughter but I do think that it is highly unlikely she would be missing now if they had stayed in that night and cared for her properly.

With regard to the dogs smelling death in the appartment, could it not be possible that Madeleine sadly died in the apartment but not at the hands of her parents? Also, as Maria mentioned, bothe her parents were doctors and must have handled dead bodies quite routinely in their jobs. Perhaps the smell lingered on their clothes and on things they touched, even after washing.

[joelhall]

How did the other abductions happen I wonder? Were the children left alone in a room without supervision for long periods? Were local people aware of the abuctions? It's strange they haven't mentioned them in relation to the McCann case.

I do not believe for one minute that the McCanns accidently or purposefully killed their daughter but I do think that it is highly unlikely she would be missing now if they had stayed in that night and cared for her properly.

With regard to the dogs smelling death in the appartment, could it not be possible that Madeleine sadly died in the apartment but not at the hands of her parents? Also, as Maria mentioned, bothe her parents were doctors and must have handled dead bodies quite routinely in their jobs. Perhaps the smell lingered on their clothes and on things they touched, even after washing.

firstly id like to point out that these investigations are difficult, and the people involved are only human. that said....

i doubt they would handled bodies which had the smell of death on them (unless they were involved in post-mortum work) or forget the wash their clothes (plus i doubt theyd wear scrubs on holiday abroad too), or that it was the girls death which caused it unless she was dead quite some time. it just seems highly unlikely that this is the cause of the smell (if indeed it was present - dogs are not the most sophisticated or rigorously controllable scientific tools).

the problem with this claim is that:

- dogs cant talk. were relying on what a dog handler interprets from the dogs behaviour

- noone knows if it was human death smell or something else, or if human, who?

- noone can really prove if its true or not.

i merely think the police have screwed up. kind of reminds me of the stephen lawrence case. i dont buy the racism cries, i think it was all down to police incompetence, but then as now, people like to be able to blame someone for doing something harmful, rather than just being downright useless or unlucky.

i do agree with you that the parents are to blame to some extent though. yes, its awful, but that doesnt absolve them of parental responsibility. ultimately, parents have a duty to protect their children. this doesnt amount to leaving them home alone at night in a foreign country while they go out for dinner. for people to get uppity when you suggest this just shows they must condone such behaviour. but then such is the world we live in today where people have an excuse for everything. the excuse here beng 'they lost their little girl so we cant judge them'.

simple put, we can and should as its about time parents from all backgrounds started acting like it. to be frank, if theyre both full time doctors then the young kids arent getting the family unit they need. modern liberal attitudes can make of this what they like, but this system worked well up to now. and kids in my parents day werent getting drunk, stoned & stabbing each other in the guts precisely due to the parents doing their job. these sorts of things should be a wake up call.

perhaps their guilt over this is the reason everyones sort of got this thing in their mind over madelaine? youd think shes the only missing child in the world sometimes. the lengths they are going to seem to be a waste of time if im honest. how ex-coppers are going to have any more luck with the same witnesses or evidence is anyones guess. i see it as publicity ploys.

the parents have seemingly been thought of as murderers. ive yet to see any proof the girl is dead. weve all seen the questioning of the parents, mrs. mccann refusing to answer just about anything (very helpful). this strikes the public as either someone rather stupid (not likely for a doctor) or for some reason trying to keep something secret. theres the dna found in a hire car. the list goes on & on, and yet were nowhere.

i suspect that this case has simply been bungled from day one, and noone has the guts to admit this. about the only thing getting anything near progress is the reactions to publicity incited by the parents, and even the sightings themselves are questionable. noone even seems sure of the crime which is actaully being investigated anymore.

theres a little girl who was reported missing. just three years old. i for one think the media furore, police handling and parents behaviour surrounding this are appalling. at one time or another they all blame each other - anyone except themselves. until they act like the responsible grown ups they all are and aknowledge this was never going to be simple (i.e. the police are people not supermen) this childs fate will remain unknown. and thats the most heartbreaking thing of all.

[anna]

Maria...I have been away from the boards for most of the day.
Having no time to post on them.

My opinion of the McCanns,and whatever other opinions I hold of this situation,remains the same.

Welcome back to the boards.Nice to have you,once again,amongst us.

Best Regards,
ANNA.

[caz]

These are proper respectable people in which a moment of innatention turned out to have their daughter abducted.

Maybe if Kate had gone to check much later, the other two kids would have been taken as well.

The Portuguese final prosecutor´s report said that the McCann´s could not predict that by going to that resort, their children would be in danger. Actually, I did meet someone who asked for a broucher from that same resort the McCann´s stayed at and it is advertised as a very safe place to go for families with children, the brochure does not tell you that in fact four other children have disappeared near there…

Good grief Maria! Firstly, you must think your readers know nothing about the facts of this case to claim that Madeleine was abducted during a ‘moment of inattention’ by her ‘proper respectable’ parents.

Secondly, unless you are suggesting that the McCanns are also the dimmest parents who ever walked the planet, they should have known that there is no such place on earth as a ‘very safe place’ to leave such young children deliberately unattended, let alone an unlocked apartment in a resort catering for kids (ie a child abductor’s idea of a free sweet shop), that is also separated from their mum and dad’s chosen place of entertainment by a ruddy great swimming pool.

In fact I don’t know what’s worse, considering they both earn a living caring for others: knowing it wasn’t safe and leaving the children anyway, or claiming ignorance and blaming the holiday brochure for not pointing out in nice big words: MAKE SURE YOUR KIDS HAVE A RESPONSIBLE ADULT WITH THEM AT ALL TIMES.

The twins deserve not to live with alcoholic, abusive and neglectful parents, and possibly worse, for I am not sure that Kate McCann did not accidentally murder her daughter during a "temper fit". The twins need to be removed from the McCann home immediately.

Capps,

If the McCanns were alcoholics don’t you think that would have come out by now? They had no such ‘excuse’ for leaving their kids alone while they went out for the evening, but that’s all we can be sure they did. Regardless of when and how Madeleine went missing from that apartment, the twins were left there alive and well but alone.

And it’s not legally possible to ‘murder’ anyone accidentally. Murder implies intent to kill. An accident is manslaughter. I agree that it’s not a good thing to be in charge of young children if you know you have a temper you find hard to control. In that case it would arguably be better to share the parenting with others, but anything’s better than having no parenting at all.

I do not believe little children should be left alone but you have to bear in mind that even little children who are with their parents sometimes come to harm…

So that makes it ok, Maria? Are you suggesting that the McCanns did bear this in mind and figured: “Well if little children who are with their parents can still come to harm sometimes, what’s the big deal? We may as well let nature take its course and let Madeleine cry herself to sleep again tonight.”

The dangers can’t be totally eliminated, but a good parent will do what they can to minimise the risks, not recklessly add to them.

On the night in question,the McCanns were tipped as frontrunners to win an IQ contest,held around the pool…

Oh the irony. If this didn’t smack Maria between the eyes and open them wide I don’t know what would.

Just goes to show that people who can win IQ contests can also have the common sense of a pilchard.

Mrs McCann told the Daily Mirror:

"There's nothing in the police report that indicates anything bad has happened to her."

The oddest thing I’ve heard yet. What isn’t bad about being taken away from your mother at a tender age while she isn't there to keep you safe?

Mr McCann said:

"We were investigated in the most intimate detail. My plan was to stay quiet and not answer. But the first question was, 'Are you involved in the disappearance of your daughter?' It was nonsense and I decided to respond."

Again, a very odd attitude. Parents should be only too willing to answer every question put to them and let the police decide what information may or may not help find their missing child. Did he seriously think the police would be doing their job properly if they didn’t at least consider this possibility and ask the question? It may have been ‘nonsense’ in this case, but the police are not psychic and can’t be expected to know who they are dealing with until they start getting some answers.

It reminds me of the indignant reaction of quick-tempered Sion Jenkins to being asked a similar question following the murder of his foster daughter Billie-Jo. He was astounded that the police would even consider that he - a ‘respectable’ man (who was not above lying about his credentials to get a better job) could be in any way responsible.

theres a little girl who was reported missing. just three years old. i for one think the media furore, police handling and parents behaviour surrounding this are appalling. at one time or another they all blame each other - anyone except themselves. until they act like the responsible grown ups they all are and aknowledge this was never going to be simple (i.e. the police are people not supermen) this childs fate will remain unknown. and thats the most heartbreaking thing of all.

Well said, Joel. Nobody is willingly taking any of the blame here. Some papers were forced to apologise and pay up for the distress they caused to the parents (not that it could ever compare with their distress after they lost the most precious thing they were entrusted with) and the private investigators are getting rich from achieving nothing, while the police only get stick for it.

The report on the Portuguese police made the same point as you do about them not being supermen, with the powers of Poirot or Holmes to solve every missing person case and tie up all the loose ends. That applies equally, if not more so, to the private investigators, and yet many suckers - er, people - have invested a lot more than blind faith in their ability to mend what others are accused of breaking.

Love,

Caz
X

[claire]

Yesterday, I had a moment of inattention...my two sons (1 and a half and 3 and a half) got stuck into a cooling tray stacked with brownies, completely overdid it and smeared chocolatey hands on the kitchen floor, the fridge and, as I went to grab them, on a wall. Another time I had a moment of inattention my son pulled the CD rack over. And, on still another occasion, my 3 year old bounced off his bed and grazed his leg. This is the sort of thing that happens in moments of parental inattention. It's all a moment allows. A few hours in another place, noisy, boozy, is not a moment of parental inattention. It's negligence.

I have no way to know whether the McCanns are directly involved in the disappearance of their daughter. I'm not about to comment on it. But, it is safe to say, they were certainly indirectly involved in it--had their children been with them, or a babysitter, either in the *locked* apartment or hanging out together as a family, then it seems very, very unlikely that any abductor would have had the opportunity to do what s/he did.

I think people would have a lot more sympathy for the McCanns if they weren't so damned angry with everyone who suggested they might have acted inappropriately that night.

[joelhall]

Yesterday, I had a moment of inattention...my two sons (1 and a half and 3 and a half) got stuck into a cooling tray stacked with brownies, completely overdid it and smeared chocolatey hands on the kitchen floor, the fridge and, as I went to grab them, on a wall. Another time I had a moment of inattention my son pulled the CD rack over. And, on still another occasion, my 3 year old bounced off his bed and grazed his leg. This is the sort of thing that happens in moments of parental inattention. It's all a moment allows. A few hours in another place, noisy, boozy, is not a moment of parental inattention. It's negligence.

I have no way to know whether the McCanns are directly involved in the disappearance of their daughter. I'm not about to comment on it. But, it is safe to say, they were certainly indirectly involved in it--had their children been with them, or a babysitter, either in the *locked* apartment or hanging out together as a family, then it seems very, very unlikely that any abductor would have had the opportunity to do what s/he did.

I think people would have a lot more sympathy for the McCanns if they weren't so damned angry with everyone who suggested they might have acted inappropriately that night.

theyd probably get more sympathy if they looked like they were helping police instead of becoming media whores too. is it any real shock they were suspects.

"We were investigated in the most intimate detail. My plan was to stay quiet and not answer. But the first question was, 'Are you involved in the disappearance of your daughter?' It was nonsense and I decided to respond."

everyone i spoke to, when this was in the press, was along the same thought as me:

'why?'

theyve just made it harder for themselves really.

[claire]

Agreed, joel...photoshoots with the Pope wouldn't have been most people's priority.

[Bob Hinton]

Regular Occurence

Claire is quite right to focus on the claim that the disappearance of Madeline happened during a ‘moments inattention’. It was nothing of the sort. The McCanns habitually left their children alone at night while they went out.

The morning she went missing Madeline was heard to tearfully ask where mummy was the previous evening as she had woken up and found her gone. That would have torn me to pieces and guaranteed that I wouldn’t leave my child alone again.

[Ally]

While I completely agree that the McCann's attempt to brush off their gross negligence and overwhelming incompetence as parents is insulting to anyone with half a brain, I disagree with Claire's above statement about "photo ops with the pope" not being high priority. I would think that if one was Catholic and your child was missing, a chance to meet with the Pope would indeed by HIGH on your list being that they tend to think the Pope has the ear of God and all and a divine intervention could never go amiss. Of course, if they killed her, that would just be an act of unimaginable gall....but anyway.

[caz]

The morning she went missing Madeline was heard to tearfully ask where mummy was the previous evening as she had woken up and found her gone. That would have torn me to pieces and guaranteed that I wouldn’t leave my child alone again.

Hi Bob,

What I read was actually more heart-breaking than that. Kate McCann admitted that Madeleine had asked over breakfast why she hadn't come the night before when she and the twins had been crying for her. But Kate said that the question was asked in a calm and casual manner in the course of their conversation, rather than a tearful request for reassurance.

So if only Madeleine had made just a bit more fuss, Kate might have got a clue that crying in vain for mummy isn't any child's idea of a fun holiday.

Love,

Caz
X

[claire]

Point taken, Ally...but I'm not sure that God would have listened more intently because of the phalanx of press photographers there. I'm just of the (possibly wrong) opinion that it could have been done more discreetly... talking to His Holiness would have had the same effect, no, or did they believe that, for their petition to be heard, they had to be there in person with all the symbolism of pathos (the pink toy) and the British press? And, erm, who told the press? His Holiness? Or their PR rep?

I suppose I'd just believe, in their positions, that God would listen as attentively to the prayers of a little girl in danger or those of her parents on her behalf as He would the Pope on the same subject. But then, they do seem pretty drawn by fame and figureheads, don't they?

[joelhall]

Point taken, Ally...but I'm not sure that God would have listened more intently because of the phalanx of press photographers there. I'm just of the (possibly wrong) opinion that it could have been done more discreetly... talking to His Holiness would have had the same effect, no, or did they believe that, for their petition to be heard, they had to be there in person with all the symbolism of pathos (the pink toy) and the British press? And, erm, who told the press? His Holiness? Or their PR rep?

I suppose I'd just believe, in their positions, that God would listen as attentively to the prayers of a little girl in danger or those of her parents on her behalf as He would the Pope on the same subject. But then, they do seem pretty drawn by fame and figureheads, don't they?

or perhaps let the old bill get on with doing their job without having to spend time answering criticisms every 5 minutes.

then again i just see meeting the pope as yet another publicity stunt. weve seen them go to church, the video diary, the rich and famous lining up to bankroll them - good ways to get the heat off of course, then again it could be desperation.
it was pretty annoying at any rate. the funnt thing is i dont watch the news or read the papers and it still got to me

[Maria]

Yesterday, I had a moment of inattention...my two sons (1 and a half and 3 and a half) got stuck into a cooling tray stacked with brownies, completely overdid it and smeared chocolatey hands on the kitchen floor, the fridge and, as I went to grab them, on a wall. Another time I had a moment of inattention my son pulled the CD rack over. And, on still another occasion, my 3 year old bounced off his bed and grazed his leg. This is the sort of thing that happens in moments of parental inattention. It's all a moment allows. A few hours in another place, noisy, boozy, is not a moment of parental inattention. It's negligence.

I have no way to know whether the McCanns are directly involved in the disappearance of their daughter. I'm not about to comment on it. But, it is safe to say, they were certainly indirectly involved in it--had their children been with them, or a babysitter, either in the *locked* apartment or hanging out together as a family, then it seems very, very unlikely that any abductor would have had the opportunity to do what s/he did.

I think people would have a lot more sympathy for the McCanns if they weren't so damned angry with everyone who suggested they might have acted inappropriately that night.

Claire:

This is exactly how I feel about the whole situation. The other thing is that I cannot be as judgeamental with the venom that some others express here, which is easy to do on hindsight, to hiss and accuse and vilify people who we know little or nothing about.

Usually when people go on holidays they have a false sense of security and it is just that: False, and most people do things they would not normally do at home. I would imagine that they thought that as the children were fast asleep in the room, in a resort designed for families just like them, and they were also nearby in the company of trusted friends, maybe this led them to think it would be o.k. if they only checked their sleeping children every 10 minutes or so, ( this I´m guessing of course as I´m trying to understand what happened ) and they thought that would be alright since the other doctors who also had children too, presumably were doing exactly the same thing, except for one, whose child was ill so she stayed with him. ( This apartment was only one door away from the McCanns )

There were also reports of Madeleine being really happy on this holiday, with Madeleine describing the previous day before she disappeared as: " The Best Ever " If the children were left unnatended as some have described here, then I do not understand why the child minder of the resort who fed and bathed Maddie and her sibblings on the night she disappeared and putting her to bed along with the twins, giving so many glowing comments about the parents ? This child minder was one of the persons who also helped to look around for Madeleine at the resort the night she disappeared.

[claire]

It's impossible to say why she'd say that, Maria, isn't it... maybe they seemed just wonderful (thinking about my public mummy face!). Just seems so sad that this same child minder didn't stick around for the evening.

Sad all round, whatever the truth(s) of the matter.