Madeleine McCann

[Limehouse]

Two things - since reading about this sighting in Holland, I have heard that the McCanns never referred to Madeleine as 'Maddy or Maddie' and it is unlikely that she would have introduced herself as such. Therefore, it seems those investigating this story thought it was false or a 'red herring'.

Secondly, re not answering questions put to them, it is common for suspects to be advised by their lawyers not to answer any questions, or certain questions, simply because the answers could be used to incriminate them in court. Now, you might think that if they are innocent, there is no way they could be incriminated by answering questions truthfully but that is not the case. We have seen over and over again, parents convicted of harming or murdering their children, when they have been totally innocent.

[caz]

Hi Anna,

Yes, the whole thing really does beggar belief. I can totally understand why the McCanns in their position would want to hold onto anything at all that could be significant. What I don't understand is how anyone removed from events could be taken in by Clarence Mitchell and his spin machine. If only the McCanns realised that he was the worst possible representative for them, but he has them exactly where he wants them and he won't be out of a job anytime soon.

The encounter came less than a month after Madeleine went missing from her family´s holiday apartment in Portugal, and was outlined in detail to police there. But they failed to follow up what appears the most credible sighting since Madeleine went missing on May 3 last year, shortly before her fourth birthday.

And her parents Kate and Gerry only learned of it last night, after the release of police files. Shop worker Anna Marie Martha Stam, who was working in the Dam´s Feest party shop in Amsterdam, said a man and woman had gone into the shop with three children late last May.

Mrs. Stam, 41, said the girl looked " very much like " Madeleine, but for her dark hair, and the man with her " did not look like a nice person " She said:
" A little girl approached me. She was three to four years old, she had straight, dark brown hair in a ponytail "

" What called my attention was the fact that she showed little or no emotion on her little face. She asked me in English, " Do you know where my mummy is ? " I answered that her mother was a little bit further back in the shop and she answered: " She is not my mummy." I asked her who the woman was, and she said, " She is a stranger, she took me from my mummy ! "

" I noticed the little girl spoke good English without an accent. I asked her what her name was and she said: " My name is Maddie "

" I then asked her where she had last seen her mother and she answered: " They took me from my holiday "

Ms Stam reported the meeting to Dutch police in early June last year. She described the man, who she believed spoke Portuguese, as aged between 35 and 40 with dark brown hair and a moustache. The woman, who had been speaking French, was slim and blonde, aged between 35 and 40. She told Ms Stam they had a small circus in France.

There is no way on this earth that such a conversation in late May would not have been reported immediately considering all the publicity - and especially if this woman thought the man didn't look like a nice person and believed he spoke Portuguese (?????) therefore didn't feel she could challenge the couple or try to keep the child engaged in conversation while thinking how she could get the police there asap.

It makes no sense whatsoever that an incident like this was not even reported to Dutch police until early June. Best case scenario would be if the encounter had been late in the day on May 31st and the call to the police had been made the following day, June 1st. But had that been the case we'd have been told that the woman wasted no time at all in calling the police. As it is, the gap between late May when this supposedly took place and early June when the woman finally told the police could have been anything up to three weeks.

I wish people would THINK before they accept stuff like this at face value and immediately assume the Portuguese cops were too stupid or lazy to follow up what would of course have been the very best early lead that anyone could have hoped for had it happened just as reported.

Love,

Caz
X

[Maria]

Caz:

The story was reported immediately to the Dutch police and the Dutch police passed it to the Portuguese police and it was only discovered when the police files were closed last Wednesday. The public was not informed of this because of strict secret evidence according to Portuguese laws about releasing information on the cases they work on.

Now that the files have been opened... then it was when finally all this came to light, as you can imagine the parents are dismayed that they were not informed of such an important lead, specially when they have private detectives to follow ANY lead that comes forward from wherever, the fact that they were kept in the dark is unforgivable and it beggars belief !

The latest news is that Portuguese detectives came under fire from their own prosecutors for uncovering " Very little " conclusive evidence about Madeleine´s fate, the newly released files have revealed.

The damning report, made public as part of the massive dossier of evidence assembled over more than 14 months, even compared local investigators unfavourably with Hercule Poirot and Sherlock Homes.

The document, written by public prosecutors in Portimao and dated July 21 ( The day the case was officially shelved ) said the investigation had not been able to achieve any proof which would allow " The information of any lucid, sensible, serious and honest conclusion " of the circumstances of the girl going missing. It went on: " This includes the most dramatic thing, ascertaining whether she is still alive or dead ( which seems the most probable " )

The prosecutors continued " The investigators are fully conscious that their work is not exempt from imperfections. They worked with an enormous margin of error and they achieved very little in terms of conclusive results, especially about the fate of the unfortunate child.

" This is not, unfortunately, a detective novel, a crime scenario fit for the investigative efforts of a Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot, guided by the illusion that the forces of law and justice can always re-establish order "

The final volume of the files contained the final 58 page report written by public prosecutors José de Magalhaes e Menezes and Joao Melchior Gomes.They said Madeleine´s parents did not " act with intent " in leaving their children alone in their holiday apartment the night the child went missing.

" They could not predict that in the resort they chose to spend their holidays they could place the life of any of their children in danger. " They noted that the McCanns were " already serving a heavy sentence " ( Madeleine´s disappearance ) for going out for dinner without their children."

That was the conclusion of the prosecutors veredict on this case where the McCann´s are no longer arguidos.

Maria

[anna]

Hi Caz,
Great post! Only one word to add.............EXACTLY!!
I can't believe either how people are taken in by all this.Except to say,that there are some,like Maria and Limehouse,who are hoping that what we all suspect,is not true.Which we all do to some extent.
I still have a feeling that what happened to Maddie,happened between her being picked up from kiddie club,and the McCanns arriving at the table at 8.
As I believe it was all over and done with,and she had been removed from the scene before 8.....in other words,all over before we think it had begun.
I may be wrong,and would love to be proven otherwise,but it would make more sense if that were the case.(The fiasco that was the Tappas 7,just served to add to that train of thought,unfortunately.)
Let's look at the theory of abduction from what Maria said....white slave...
There are many,many ex-pats in Africa,and ex-pats clubs where white children run amok.Their parents work for oil companies and other profitable organisations,who would be prime targets for ransom also.Yet these abductors travel to Portugal to nab a white blonde haired kiddie,which they could obtain and sell on their own doorstep????.
Clarence Mitchell was a move of protection..he has a lot of contacts in very useful places,if the need arose...and he is well used to dealing with the press,and being able to manipulate a story to work the way he needs it to.
Everything seems to be to do with protecting the McCanns,and it has had that feeling since day 1.Maddie has taken second place,as an "also run",in my book.
Maria,it wasn't me who said Maddie was dead,it was Jeff...who knows little of the thread,but picked up on that,with limited knowledge of what has been said.
Oh well,yawn....let's hope the police file isn't too thick,as we are about to be treated to the delights of the imagination of many,that has fuled stories contained within,soon to fill our tabloid and news,until the McCanns run out of that fuel and look for something else.You'd have thought the judge would have had more sense,wouldn't you.
ANNA.

[anna]

Maria,
Having just read your last post through,will ask you again....

Why did these people not take the step of making this "evidence" more public than just informing the Dutch police.Every time this story was reported all over the word,the contact number was underneath the poster shown repeatedly...there was contact number direct to the McCanns on the internet.The could have gone to the press,and said,"look,we have this important info"...they knew full well that after nobody "major" contacts them within a short period of time,that it isn't being considered important.
Maria THINK about this.Would you have just thought,"oh,it's being investigated so i'll not say another word about it??"No,you'd have done your best to get it publicised as much as you could,because you would have had the childs trust,and plea for help,in your thoughts.
Hmmmm...ask yourself why this has not occurred to the McCann's???

[Maria]

Maria,
Having just read your last post through,will ask you again....

Why did these people not take the step of making this "evidence" more public than just informing the Dutch police.Every time this story was reported all over the word,the contact number was underneath the poster shown repeatedly...there was contact number direct to the McCanns on the internet.The could have gone to the press,and said,"look,we have this important info"...they knew full well that after nobody "major" contacts them within a short period of time,that it isn't being considered important.
Maria THINK about this.Would you have just thought,"oh,it's being investigated so i'll not say another word about it??"No,you'd have done your best to get it publicised as much as you could,because you would have had the childs trust,and plea for help,in your thoughts.
Hmmmm...ask yourself why this has not occurred to the McCann's???

Anna:

I´m not doumb, and I would prefer it, if this was done without insults.

I suppose one expects that if the facts have already been given to the police, it is the duty of the police to work on it. Well they didn´t.

If you really have read what I wrote above, then you will see that the police came under fire by their own prosecutors for not having done anything to even establish whether Madeleine is dead or alive. The most important thing that came out of this, is that the prosecutors did not find any evidence that the parents were in any way implicated into having anything to do with their daughters disappearance, therefore, their status of " Arguidos " or suspects was lifted in other words, they found there is no evidence against them, there is nothing suspicious about them. That is the veredict of the prosecutors.

The people in Holland thought that they had. Even though the Maddie story is known in Holland, it is my experience through traveling in different European countries, that what is hot news in England its not news in Holland or Spain. For example in Spain, they tend to cover news from South America, like the revolution going on in Bolivia against President Ebo Morales. That is something it does not make the news over here, where they are obsessed with whether Gordon Brown will have a leadership challenge or not, something they give a hoot in Spain.

What it has transpired by closing those files now, it is the different leads that were ignored by the Portuguese police and even worse, forgot or neglected to tell the parents. Anyone sane and with common sense would see that this one looks like a promising lead, yet it was not followed up because the Portuguese police were incompetent. The policeman that was leading the McCann´s investigation was sacked for incompetence, not only for the Maddie fiasco but on another abduction case where the mother was thrown into jail instead of looking for her daughter. That abduction happened only a stone throw away from where Madie was taken.

Police intelligence in Europe are suggesting Madeleine McCann may have been abducted to order for a Belgian paedophile ring is being urgently investigated by private detectives working for the little girl´s parents.

Scotland Yard passed on a report from an informant, who said a photograph of the child on holiday in Portugal was taken and passed to a " purchaser " in Belgium days before she vanisihed, official case files have revealed.

Maria

[Rosey O'Ryan]

Hi all,
I went to my doctor and told him that I thought I had a serious sight problem. I am the only person not to have seen "Maddie" McCann! He just laughted and said, "keep taking the tabloids".
The question regarding the 42 questions put to her mother. She refused to answer any of them since it is the right of a suspect to remain silent. In English law this can be used against you at a later date. Hmm.
Rosey.

[Limehouse]

Remaining silent can be used against you - but answers to questions can also be twisted and distorted during cross examination.

These parents were extremely foolish to leave their children alone. It was a terrible thing they did and now they have to live with suggestions and accusations that they were involved in their daughter's disappearance. There is no evidence at all to support this but the suspicions will never dioe until Madeleine's fate in know.

[anna]

Maria,
Please accept my apologies,if you read my post as an insult to you.
It was never intended to imply anything like that.
I was merely pointing out to you the case from the point of the people who reported the sighting to the Dutch police.They could have reported it to others aswell,to make sure it got to the right sources.
I wasn't talking about the Portuguese police of anything else to do with the investigation,just the fact that if it were I,or indeed you-as the caring and person that I have come to know you to be- we as caring women,with a childs safety and trust in question,would have endeavoured to have explored every avenue...unlike these people,who have just left this as a reported incident.
Whether or not it was investigated properly has nothing to do with the basic fact that I do not believe,as you and others do,that this is an important piece of information.I think it is a hoax....and I think that is what it was regarded as by the police.
That is all.No big deal.Just my thoughts.
ANNA.

[anna]

Went back to the menu...then had another thought...

Perhaps others would have been content just to tell the police,and trust them to investigate it further whenever they felt the need to.

Perhaps I'm a pushy woman!!!!!!!

[caz]

Caz:

The story was reported immediately to the Dutch police...

You mean anything up to three weeks, don't you? Late May to early June is what you quoted in a previous post. How do you get 'immediately' from that?

" This is not, unfortunately, a detective novel, a crime scenario fit for the investigative efforts of a Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot, guided by the illusion that the forces of law and justice can always re-establish order "

Very true. Disappearances can't always be solved, and it's an illusion that the police would certainly have solved this one if only they had got off their fat backsides and done this, that or the other.

" They could not predict that in the resort they chose to spend their holidays they could place the life of any of their children in danger. "

If their eyesight was so poor that they couldn't see the dirty great swimming pool between their apartment and the tapas bar, they should have gone to Specsavers.

Love,

Caz
X

[Rosey O'Ryan]

Remaining silent can be used against you - but answers to questions can also be twisted and distorted during cross examination.

These parents were extremely foolish to leave their children alone. It was a terrible thing they did and now they have to live with suggestions and accusations that they were involved in their daughter's disappearance. There is no evidence at all to support this but the suspicions will never dioe until Madeleine's fate in know.

Hi Limehouse,
You also have the right not to go in the witness box and give evidence.
Rosey.

[Maria]

Caz:

In the end it does not matter what you think, since the McCann´s notice of suspects has been officially lifted from them because there was NO EVIDENCE to suggest they had any part in their daughters disappearance, which will mean the private investigators for the McCann´s can finally concentrate in finding out what happened to Madeleine.

Maria

[Maria]

Maria,
Please accept my apologies,if you read my post as an insult to you.
It was never intended to imply anything like that.
I was merely pointing out to you the case from the point of the people who reported the sighting to the Dutch police.They could have reported it to others aswell,to make sure it got to the right sources.
I wasn't talking about the Portuguese police of anything else to do with the investigation,just the fact that if it were I,or indeed you-as the caring and person that I have come to know you to be- we as caring women,with a childs safety and trust in question,would have endeavoured to have explored every avenue...unlike these people,who have just left this as a reported incident.
Whether or not it was investigated properly has nothing to do with the basic fact that I do not believe,as you and others do,that this is an important piece of information.I think it is a hoax....and I think that is what it was regarded as by the police.
That is all.No big deal.Just my thoughts.
ANNA.

Anna:

You might think this is easy to tell the world what you have seen and that automatically the whole world will know it. I´m afraid this is not the case, as you can remember, there were also 4 more disappearances in Portugal around the diameter of where Madeleine disappeared, yet here in the U.K. or for that matter, the rest of the world, never knew anything about these other disappearances until the McCann´s mounted an enormous publicity campaign to find their own daughter, that these other disappearances came to light. A campaign which cost two million pounds. Not very many people have the resources to do that, very fortunatelly for the McCann´s. Sir Richard Branson found it in his heart to give them a million pounds to do the publicity campaign to try to find the girl, and also contract private detectives to do the work to help the police find Madeleine.

The U.S. is way ahead of us here in Europe for this kind of awareness and we have a lot to learn from them, so missing children can be broadcasted all over Europe.

[Bob Hinton]

Spartacus Revisited

This is having all the ingredients of deja vu!

"I saw Madeline"

"No I saw Madeline"

"You're both wrong - I saw Madeline"

I think we are rapidly reaching the stage where people who have not claimed to have seen Madeline will be in the minority!