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Not sure where the last 50 odd previous pages have gone. Here we go again!
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'Nothing is obvious'. -
Googlecached, fancy pasting it all back in here ? (There must be a better way though ?).Originally posted by Granger View Post -
Originally posted by Blueyonder View Post
Hi Blueyonder: I tried this yesterday, but I could only find the one page you have attached. I am completely in the dark about exactly what cache means, other than they are images of pages. I understand that images are lost on Cave pages. I guess we will all have to start all over again. The loss of the James Hanratty. and Julie Wallace archives thread is also devastating. Let's face it it's all a disaster. I do feel so sorry for the moderators. I gather they are optinmistic some of the postings may be regained.'Nothing is obvious'.Comment
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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Shades of Whitechapel > The Seal Chart Murder (Caroline Luard)
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granger
30th January 2006, 06:10 PM
Has anyone any extensive knowledge of the murder of Caroline Luard, at Lghtley Knoll, near Sevenoaks, Kent, England in 1908?
Grey Hunter
31st January 2006, 08:13 AM
Yes, I do. What did you want to know?
sreid
1st February 2006, 06:43 AM
Hi all,
I wrote a little about this case for a crime magazine a few years ago. Although I think Charles Luard was almost certainly innocent, I did present a scenario where he could have just pulled it off.
Best wishes,
Stan
Grey Hunter
1st February 2006, 08:03 AM
There is a slight Ripper connection with this case for Sir Robert Anderson was interviewed as a result of it, and the article appeared in the Daily Chronicle of September 1, 1908.
One of the best accounts of this case is in the book Perfect Murder by Bernard Taylor and Stephen Knight, London, Grafton, 1987, 'Murder in Fish Ponds Wood, The Tragedy of the Luards,' by Bernard Taylor, pages 91-159. So this is another tie-in, in that Knight was a Ripper author. Sadly he died before the book was published, but not before he had done some research on the Luard case for this book.
granger
1st February 2006, 06:54 PM
Hi all,
I wrote a little about this case for a crime magazine a few years ago. Although I think Charles Luard was almost certainly innocent, I did present a scenario where he could have just pulled it off.
Best wishes,
Stan
Stan: Any chance of a copy of your article?
Thanks everyone else for their replies.
'Perfect Murder' now on order from the library. I am trying to get hold of an inexpensive copy of 'The Seal Chart Murder' by A M Parkin. So far only located one.
Through the Internet, and Ordnance Survey maps I have so far been unable to locate the exact area of the murder. Without, a good book it seems difficult, other than it was Lghtley Knoll near Sevenoaks.
wehrwulf
1st February 2006, 07:34 PM
It was dramatised in a series called "In Suspicious Circumstances" in the early 90s. I think there was a book accompanying the series as well.
Grey Hunter
1st February 2006, 08:37 PM
Map of the Ightam area and location of the murder of Mrs. Luard in Fish Ponds Wood.
448
Grey Hunter
1st February 2006, 08:43 PM
A map that was published at the time of the scene of the tragedy.
449
Grey Hunter
1st February 2006, 08:54 PM
Monty Parkin's book The Seal Chart Murder self-published, Kemsing, Kent in 1994.
450
Grey Hunter
1st February 2006, 09:35 PM
A letter written by Stephen Knight to a local newspaper in January 1977 whilst researching the Luard case. As can be seen, his Ripper book was very recent.
456
jdpegg
1st February 2006, 10:15 PM
any idea if any of the books you metioned are still in print/available readily?
sreid
1st February 2006, 11:37 PM
I'm not sure if I can put that article on here. The account was in the May 2002 edition of the America's Most Wanted News Magazine. It was part of a Ten Most Wanted List for the decade of 1900-1909 of which Mrs. Luard's killer was an entry.
The scenario I proposed in which Charles could have done it involve him using some secreted away conveyance, such as a bicycle, to cover the distance in the required time to show up at the golf course when he did. I consider this unlikely and no evidence was found to indicate it but, like I said, "he could have just pulled it off".
Best wishes,
Stan
mayerling
2nd February 2006, 02:36 AM
Hi all,
I read the chapter in the book Knight co-wrote at the New York Public Library in Manhattan a decade ago. He actually made an interesting case that the killer of Mrs. Luard was eventually hanged. He suggested she had fallen victim to a charity scam in a newspaper, and was killed when she threatened to go to the authorities. The scam was perpetrated by John Alexander Dickman, who would be hung in 1910 for the still controversial train murder of Mr. Nisbet in Newcastle. Apparently Dickman was suspected of at least one other murder besides Nisbet's - that of a money lender.
My own research is what I call fun research - when out of curiosity you read up on some subject and you suddenly realize that a minor figure in that story is someone you know from another. I had been a member of a group of fellows who like military movies - like THE LONGEST DAY or THE GUNS OF NAVARONE. My friends usually pick a battle or campaign and choose the films that center around it. In January (though not recently) about the 18th or so they will have a double feature of ZULU DAWN and ZULU for the massacre of Isandhlwana and the remarkable stand at Roarke's Drift.
After I went for the first time, I realized that I just barely knew anything about these two 1879 battles (or of the Zulu War of 1879 for that matter). So I read up on them. I looked into a good book on the history of the Zulu Nations rise (under Shaka) and fall (under Ceteshwayo) called THE WASHING OF THE SPEARS by D. R. Morris. I was surprised to learn that in the wake of the disaster at Isandhlwana (which was the British equivalent, three years after, of Custer's stand at the Little Big Horn), that a story was circulated regarding the stealing of papers from the corpse of Colonel Anthony Durnford, who many blamed for the disaster. If the blame on Durnford was correct, it absolved the commander of the British forces Lord Chelmsford. If the stories about the rifled papers (Durnford's orders) were correct, Chelmsford and several other leading figures would be revealed as incompetents.
The person pushing the stories was Durnford's fiance. She found a complete supporter and defender in a newly stationed Royal Engineers officer, named Lt. Col. Charles Luard. Sound familiar?
What I found fascinating was that Luard got into serious difficulties because of a letter writing campaign in which he smeared several others as conspirators against the memory of Colonel Durnford. They were able to force a court martial on Luard, where he was censured. The reason I found this fascinating was that it somewhat mirrored what happened to the General in 1908, when after his wife's murder he was the subject of the poison pen letter writing campaign blaming him for the murder - a campaign that led to his completed state of depression, and his suicide by throwing himself before a train. I wrote an essay in MEDICINE, SCIENCE, AND THE LAW, in which a section was devoted to this "discovery", and how it reflected on the 1908 tragedy.
Best wishes,
Jeff
granger
2nd February 2006, 11:03 AM
Thank you for all the information. I would like to enquire as to where the maps were obtained?
Interestingly I accessed the Otford village web site and noted that recently the village had a 'talk' on the Luard murder given by Monty Larkin, who must be the A M Parkin, authour of the book 'The Seal Charter Murder', which I now have on order. I have also obtained Edition No 129 of the excellent series of 'Murder Casebooks'. Although this account is fully illustrated, it surprisingly has no photograph of the victim, Caroline Luard.
Grey Hunter
2nd February 2006, 01:51 PM
The first map is a tracing made from the O.S. map for the Knight/Taylor book and the second is from a large scrapbook I have of cuttings on the murder.
granger
2nd February 2006, 07:52 PM
Managed to speak to A M (Monty) Parkin today. He tells me that his book(let) has a photo of Caroline Luard. He also told me that the home of the Luards still stands, but there are only remains of the summerhouse where her body was discovered. AML says he has no theory of his own.
Grey Hunter
2nd February 2006, 09:21 PM
Here is a photograph of the murdered woman.
502
sreid
3rd February 2006, 01:54 AM
Dickman is certainly the most popular current suspect and about the only one mentioned besides Charles.
I tend to think she more than likely interrupted a burglary and paid the price or just happened to cross paths with some random psycho.
One question I have is the actual size of the "small caliber" gun and the shot reports. If it was something like a .22, I have an air rifle that makes more noise. For this reason, I have some doubts about the people who claimed to have heard gunfire. I don't think they were giving false evidence but they might have mistaken something else for the murder shots.
Stan
mayerling
3rd February 2006, 02:28 AM
Hi Stan,
It occurred to me, when I was considering the noise of "the shots" that the noise might very well have been the backfire of a passing automobile, especially one of 1908 vintage. If you notice General Luard was chatting with a clergyman in a car when his time was accounted for. Anyone hearing the backfire, and later hearing about the shooting, might very well have thought the former was the latter.
Best wishes,
Jeff
sreid
3rd February 2006, 03:56 AM
Hi Jeff,
Yes, a backfire is one of the things I thought about. Unrelated gunfire and fireworks, I guess, would also be possibilities.
Best wishes,
Stan
Grey Hunter
3rd February 2006, 07:33 AM
Another tenuous Ripper/Luard link - in The Criminologist of Winter 1997, Volume 21 Number 4, Nick Warren, editor of Ripperana, wrote a short article 'The Murder of Mrs. Caroline Luard,' pages 229-230.
granger
4th February 2006, 11:23 AM
Grey Hunter: What can I say, but a big thank you. How she differs from how I imagined her to have been. I had expected a photo of a tall beautiful Edwardian lady bedecked in jewellery!!!!!!
granger
4th February 2006, 11:49 AM
Hi Jeff,
Yes, a backfire is one of the things I thought about. Unrelated gunfire and fireworks, I guess, would also be possibilities.
Best wishes,
Stan
Very interesting theory, and certainly one that appears not to have been presented at the time. Does anyone know the exact locations where these two witnesses (coachman's wife, Annie Wickham and gardener, Daniel Kettel) were when they heard these 'shots'? Certainly Annie Wickham said they appeared to have come from the direction of the summerhouse. Reports intimate that AW was at 'the Wilkinsons's home at Frankfield Park (where is/was that?) Would that have had any bearing (literally) on any road used by motorised vehicles?
Three 'shots' were said to have been heard by two witnesses. No cartridges or other evidence was found at the scene, except for some 'disappearing footprints'. The reports I have read do not give any indication as to the calibre of the fragments of only two bullets found in CL's body.
The General owned two revolvers: a .45 Webley and a Colt double action. Churchill said neither of the bullets were from such revolvers, and that they were fired 'from a common revolver'. What did he mean by that? Has anyone any idea what loudness of report would be made by either of these type of revolvers?
Had the General killed his wife, and the whole thing had been premeditated, he would not have believed his luck when by sheer chance a car back fired!!! Let's face it, up until the time the General was seen at the golf course, we only have his word for events and timings leading up to him saying a supposed farewell to his wife at the gate.
Presumably the sole reason this case has achieved such interest over the years is that everyone believes that the general had to have been the murderer. A case not unlike the Julia Wallace murder.
mayerling
4th February 2006, 05:15 PM
Hi Granger,
I think you are wrong. While it is always possible that the General did kill his wife, I think that it is a reaction of sympathy to the General that is the cause for this type of interest. The poison pen campaign against Charles Luard is unusual and eventually led to his suicide (or, I should say, is the most likely cause of his suicide). Since enough evidence did exist to bolster points about his golfing alibi, most comentators and students of the case give him a pass and say somebody else did it (as mentioned, Dickman has been suggested as the killer).
To give credit on the other side of the ledger, your comparison with Wallace is an apt one - both men found the bodies of their dead wives.
HAYDN'S DICTIONARY OF DATES is always a fun read, with it's compendium of long forgotten facts and newspaper stories. In the 1910 edition they included a column list under MURDERS, listing unsolved cases from 1882 - 1909. It does not include Whitechapel (which usually had an entry entirely to itself). Some of these cases one hears of (individuals connected to the "West Ham" disappearances, like Amelia Jeffs, for example), but others have just drifted off into total oblivion - like most homicide victims.
April 2, 1882 - Mrs. Henry Smythe, show while riding home from church at Collinstown, near Mullingar.
Feb. 14, 1890 - Amelia Jeffs, murdered in an empty house in the Portway facing West Ham park.
May 14, 1893 - Sarah Dinah Noel, shot in her kitchen.
December 8, 1893 - Kate Dungay, housekeeper at Lambridge House Farm,
Henley - on - Thames, murdered.
April 24, 1894 - John Robert Wells, murdered on Barnes Commons.
December 6, 1894 - Martin, the night watchman at the Cafe Royal, shot.
February 11, 1897 - Ms Elizabeth Camp, murdered in a South-Western train between Putney and Wadsworth.
August 9, 1897 - An unidentified man found naked and bound with a rope, in
the Thames near Wapping.
August 19, 1897 - Mrs. Saunders murdered at 236, Cator - Street, Peckham.
September 15, 1897 - Emma Johnson, murdered at Windsor.
September 22, 1897 - A boy nemaed William Barrett, murdered at Upton Park.
December 12, 1897 - Mrs. T. Smith, murdered in a lane near Windsor, reported.
January 20, 1898 - Mr. Thomas Webb, head dairyman in the service of the Express Dairy Co., shot while standing in the dusk outside his cattage at N.
Finchley.
August 15, 1898 - Mrs. Tylor, murdered at Kidbrook Park - road, Blackheath.
January 8, 1899 - Mary Jane Voller, child murdered at Barking, body found in a ditch.
May 13, 1900 - A woman named Waknell found murdered at a house in Water - Lane, Brixton.
June 1, 1902 - Rose Harsent, a servant girl, discovered murderer at Peasonhall, Suffolk.
June 8, 1902 - Dismembered body of a woman found in Salamanca - place, Lambeth, near the Albert Embankment, unidentified.
May 24, 1905 - Mary Sophia Money, see Merstham Tunnel Mystery.
[Ms Money's body was found on the tracks at Merstham Tunnel. The case is rather curious because nobody recalled seeing her with anyone except a man, who nobody could describe. About six years later Ms Money's brother Robert (who had been cursorily questioned in 1905) turned out to be a bigamist who killed one of his wives, wounded the other, killed all his children, and committed suicide after setting fire to his home. There is no proof he killed Mary Money, who appears to have been sexually assaulted, but he is still considered an interesting piece of the puzzle. Conan Doyle was impressed by the mystery to incorporate parts of it in his short story THE ADVENTURE OF THE BRUCE - PARTINGTON PLANS, where a character, Cadogan West, is found dead on the underground tracks.]
May 24, 1906 - A. Wakeley, a young artist found dead in his studio at Westbourne-grove, death having been caused by a number of blows on the head.
June 11, 1906 - Miss Hogg, murdered at Camberley; throat cut by burglar; her sister, who was also severely injured, escaped.
September 12, 1907 - Emily Dimmock, found with throat cut in her room at Camden-town.
February 18, 1908 - Miss Sheriff found stranged on a cliff near Bournemouth.
May 31, 1908 - Mary Ellen Bailes, aged 6 1/2, of Islington; mutilated body discovered in lavatory at corner of St. George's - road, near Elephant and Castle.
August 24, 1908 - Mrs. Luard, found shot on the balcony of a summer-house in the woods at Sevenoaks.
November 1, 1909 - G. H. Storrs, mill-owner of Gorse Hall, near Stalybridge, stabbed by an unknown man.
November 28, 1909 - Lily Templeton found dead in her bedroom at Brixton.
As I said, some of these are still quite famous while others only merit an occasional mention. The famous ones on this list would be
Amelia Jeffs - West Ham "Disappearances" Legend
Elizabeth Camp - The only one of the four "official" Victorian train murders that was never solved - the murder weapon was a pestle, and the killer was a man seen running from the train Camp's body was found on. Camp was about to get married.
The "Unidentified Man" in the Thames mystery of 1897 - it was identified as the body of one Ludwig Van Veltheim, who subsequently turned out to be still alive swindling people in South Africa, and killing the Rand millionaire Woolf Joel in 1898. I have seen that the police may have identified this victim as a sailor out for a swim in the Thames who accidentally got drowned, but the story has never been conclusively established.
Rose Harsent - the Peasonhall Murder case wherein William Gardiner was twice tried for the murder but acquitted.
Mary Money - see my note above.
Emily Dimmock - this is the Camden Town murder that led to the trial of Robert Wood (defended by Sir Edward Marshall Hall - quite brilliantly), and was the presumed subject of the series of paintings by that interesting artistic genius Walter Sickert.
Mrs. Luard
George Henry Storrs - the "Gorse Hall" assassination mystery. It led to the trials of Cornelius Howard and then Mark Wilde in 1910, both of whom were acquitted at their seperate trials as the individual killer.
A few of the other victims have occasionally popped up in passing. There was an entry in Colin Wilson and Pat Pitman's ENCYLOPEDIA OF MURDER about the death of Martin, the night watchman at the Cafe Royal - apparently he was not well liked by the celebrity clientele there as he was a spiteful tattle tale. Wakeley's murder in 1906 may have been a homosexual murder case - which was why it was closed so quickly.
But you can see the Luard case sort of rose, if you will, like the cream in the milk. There are also side issues about Luard - besides the question of the murderer's identity, and the author of the poison-pen campaign against the General. One is the fate of John Churton Collins, noted English literary scholar and critic, fan of criminal investigations, and founder (with Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and others of the private "Crime Club" known as "Our Society".
Churton Collins went down to Sevenoaks in September 1908 to conduct his own investigation, and drowned in a puddle while out walking. It may have been due to an accident while he was on a medication or it may have been something darker.
Best wishes,
JeffComment
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I am surprised that you believe the public were on the side of the Genreal. I get the impression the general consensus of opinion at that time was that General L was getting away with it because of his close connections with the police hieracy.
The point I was making about the degree of infamousy about the case over the years is that I think it would have become long forgotten had it not been for the fact that many persons, irrespective of the evidence from witnesses, considered the General had committed the murder and was getting away from it.
As with the Wallace case, on the evidence presented by many witnesses concerning what they had (thought) they had seen (and heard, in this instance) it was totally impossible for General L to have killed his wife..............but!!
I also cannot agree with you about the poison pen letters received by General L being unique in his case. Wallace was inindated with hate mail after his case was quashed on Appeal, and interestingly Wallace was looked upon extremely sympathetically before his case reached court. Dramatically this changed when his 'pound of flesh' was not extracted. I would also guess that when any murder suspect is acquitted, they too have a barrage of hate mail.
sreid
4th February 2006, 11:59 PM
A .45 Webley would be quite loud and the shorter the barrel the louder it would have been. How loud the Colt double action revolver would be would depend on the caliber, the powder charge and the barrel length. A .32, which I would consider a medium caliber weapon, would not be excessively loud if it had something like a 10" barrel. When I say not excessively loud, I mean your ears probably wouldn't be ringing if you fired it without hearing protection.
Regarding the assertion that the shots came from 'the direction of the summerhouse', the human ear is very poor at determining the direction of low frequency sound, that's why most stereos only have one sub-woofer. In this view, I would have to wonder if the witness didn't allow the fact that she knew where the murder occurred to color her testimony.
To reiterate, I think Luard was most likely innocent. It's just that, I'm only about 80% sure where most are 98%-100%.
Best wishes,
Stan
granger
5th February 2006, 11:56 AM
Is this THE Caroline Luard?
mayerling
6th February 2006, 12:25 AM
Hi,
It could be the same woman - the first of the two posted pictures seems to have been taken in the 20th Century because it shows Mrs. Luard as an elderly lady smiling. The newer photograph is a posed picture (like a studio portrait) which suggests that it took time, and the expression tended to be serious (and somewhat tired). Also the second photo is a younger woman, probably Mrs. Luard when she and her general got married.
Best wishes,
Jeff
granger
6th February 2006, 11:01 AM
Absolutely certain now it is THE Caroline Luard.
Grey Hunter: Was the photo of CL you posted, cropped, and zoomed up froma larger one? If so, any chance you could post the entire original picture? Have you any other interesting pics from your scrapbook on the case?
Grey Hunter
6th February 2006, 01:09 PM
Full group shot that includes both the Luards.
619
Grey Hunter
6th February 2006, 01:12 PM
Newspaper photograph of Mrs Luard when younger.
620
granger
6th February 2006, 01:16 PM
Grey Hunter:
EXCELLENT. Many thanks. Appreciated. So she drove!!!
Grey Hunter
6th February 2006, 01:18 PM
I don't know if she drove, the arm and hand at the wheel of the car belong to a driver who is off the photograph to the left.
granger
13th February 2006, 10:17 AM
Having just read the chapter on the case in Stephen Knight's poorly written book, 'Perfect Murder', I find it amazing that the idea of Caroline Luard having commited suicide was ever entertained. Two shots to the head, and no murder weapon on the scene, how did they think she could have possible done it??
mayerling
15th February 2006, 01:57 AM
Hi Granger,
It isn't Caroline Luard who is suspected of committing suicide. Everyone usually says she was murdered (the who did it is the first mystery of the case). It is General Charles Luard who killed himself by throwing himself under a train after he was victimized by a poison pen campaign against him suggesting he killed his wife. He left a suicide note.
Best wishes,
Jeff
granger
15th February 2006, 05:13 PM
Hi Jeff: I am afraid you are incorrect. Questions about the possibility of Caroline having killed herself were in deed raised at her inquest, including ones put to the gun specialist, Edwin Churchill. He said that it was impossible for her to have inflicted the wounds on herself. However I still cannot understand how the possibility of suicide could have ever entered into the equation when no weapon(s) was (were) left at the scene.
Grey Hunter
15th February 2006, 07:47 PM
In any case of sudden death it was a requirement to dismiss the possibility of suicide therefore the mere fact that the question was asked should not be taken as an indication that suicide was considered as a serious option.
granger
16th February 2006, 11:08 AM
In any case of sudden death it was a requirement to dismiss the possibility of suicide therefore the mere fact that the question was asked should not be taken as an indication that suicide was considered as a serious option.
Grey Hunter:
Fair comment.
sreid
17th February 2006, 07:17 PM
Hi all,
How sure are we about Mrs. Luard's age? The accounts I have say that she was 58 at the time of her death but that photograph posted here earlier looks more like a woman in her late 80s. My mom is 81 and she looks a lot younger than the woman in that picture. Could they have had her age wrong or even misidentified the woman in the photo as Caroline?
Stan
granger
18th February 2006, 06:39 PM
I certainly agree. I have read at least two references intimating that Mrs Luard was tall and beautiful in middle age. The photo kindly posted by Grey Hunter, is the only one I have ever seen of the mature Mrs L.
Incidentally, Julia Wallace was another lady murder victim who turned out to be considerably older than originally stated when she was killed.
sreid
20th February 2006, 01:31 AM
Hi all,
Firstly, I did find a version saying that the weapon was a .32 which would be fairly loud unless it was a very long barreled gun.
Secondly, I see on the last map that Grey Hunter posted a notation about a Mr. T. Durrand seeing Charles a good distance from the murder site at 3:20.
Was this man's testimony in question for some reason? I have three written accounts of this crime (by Martin Fido, Robin Odell and E. Spenser Shew) and none of them mentions this witness.
Best wishes,
Stan
rigby
2nd December 2006, 12:53 PM
Acc. to a very old - and probably long deleted - post on the BritMovie forum, there was an episode of "Schofield's Quest" (no less) devoted to this case.
granger
2nd December 2006, 07:52 PM
Acc. to a very old - and probably long deleted - post on the BritMovie forum, there was an episode of "Schofield's Quest" (no less) devoted to this case.
Rigby: Not sure what the 'Acc. to very old....' means but I think you are referring to an old posting of mine. Never received any replies.
Co-incidentally, I am about to consider some more postings in this thread as I have just re-read a couple of books (well chapters) on this fascinating case. I understand that this case was also featured in the Edward Woodward TV series, In Suspicious Circumstances'. Don't suppose anyone has a copy of that?
sreid
5th April 2007, 07:52 PM
Hello,
I have ridden a street bicycle on a bumpy dirt path and it isn't really tough at all. This is a remote possibility I admit.
Well, off on my daily shopping spree.
Stan
sreid
5th April 2007, 10:20 PM
Hi Granger,
I've looked down the title list for the In Suspicious Circumstances program on IMDb and it looks like there were a lot of interesting episodes there. Too bad the show never played in America as far as I know. Wonder if a DVD box set might be in order.
I'm still mad about them canceling the Unsolved Mysteries program here. That was my favorite show of all time.
Best wishes,
Stan
sreid
6th April 2007, 02:02 AM
P.S.
I don't see a Luard episode listed but there are some other great unsolved cases, such as, George Storrs, Evelyn Foster, Weldon Atherston, Charles Bravo, Esther Pay and the Bingham Case.
Stan
sreid
6th April 2007, 03:30 AM
P.S.S.
From another source, there is an episode listed about Luard called The Letter Killeth. Apparently IMDb didn't get them all down. They also don't list programs about Starr Faithfull and Rose Harsent which I found on a third listing.
Stan
Gordon
6th April 2007, 06:12 PM
An interesting and sad case. Unfortunately it appears that the photograph posted by granger back on 5 February last year was a different Caroline Luard. That one, from the Canadian site for the Royal Engineers, was an 1880 photograph of Caroline Mary Luard, née Leggatt (c.1844-1914), the widow of Captain Henry Reynolds Luard (1828-1870). The lengthy page on Capt. Luard makes that clear:
There's also a page on the Luard family, which includes a summary of the Seal Chart murder:
It's obvious then that General Charles Luard was a descendant of the same family, but unfortunately this genealogy page doesn't extend so far as to tell us what the relationship was.
Gordon
6th April 2007, 06:28 PM
An interesting and sad case. Unfortunately it appears that the photograph posted by granger back on 5 February last year was a different Caroline Luard. That one, from the Canadian site for the Royal Engineers, was an 1880 photograph of Caroline Mary Luard, née Leggatt (c.1844-1914), the widow of Captain Henry Reynolds Luard (1828-1870). The lengthy page on Capt. Luard makes that clear:
http://www .royalengineers.ca/LuardHR.html
There's also a page on the Luard family, which includes a summary of the Seal Chart murder:
http://www .royalengineers.ca/LuardFam.html
It's obvious then that Maj.-Gen. Charles Luard was a descendant of the same family, but unfortunately this genealogy page doesn't extend so far as to tell us what the relationship was.
I'm posting this a second time because as a "newbie" (actually a returnee), anything I post with a live link in it is getting shuffled off to some moderation queue instead--from which nothing has ever emerged so far! So if anyone wants to use the links above, they'll have to edit out the space I inserted after the "www" to get around this problem.
granger
9th April 2007, 02:58 PM
An interesting and sad case. Unfortunately it appears that the photograph posted by granger back on 5 February last year was a different Caroline Luard. That one, from the Canadian site for the Royal Engineers, was an 1880 photograph of Caroline Mary Luard, née Leggatt (c.1844-1914), the widow of Captain Henry Reynolds Luard (1828-1870). The lengthy page on Capt. Luard makes that clear:
http://www .royalengineers.ca/LuardHR.html
There's also a page on the Luard family, which includes a summary of the Seal Chart murder:
http://www .royalengineers.ca/LuardFam.html
It's obvious then that Maj.-Gen. Charles Luard was a descendant of the same family, but unfortunately this genealogy page doesn't extend so far as to tell us what the relationship was.
I'm posting this a second time because as a "newbie" (actually a returnee), anything I post with a live link in it is getting shuffled off to some moderation queue instead--from which nothing has ever emerged so far! So if anyone wants to use the links above, they'll have to edit out the space I inserted after the "www" to get around this problem.
Hi Gordon: Firstly welcome to the thread. Understand your frustration because when I joined Casebook, you had to print off an application form, and send by snail (in my case, air) mail to the States, to obtain a password! Is still the case?
Thanks for the gen on the Luards. Actually I did eventually realise the picture you mention was not of Caroline. I am unsure too whether or not it was ever verified that the newspaper photo, (post #17 by Grey Hunter) was of Caroline, who, in late middle age, was described as being beautiful.
Gordon
10th April 2007, 02:12 AM
Hi granger,
Yes, I ran into that same rigmarole. Before that though, I posted for a while on Casebook back in 2002, when new members could register online with no hassle. After a lapse, I came back intending to post again, only to find that even previous members were now required to go through the snail mail procedure you described before resuming their activity on the board. I guess we're all spoiled these days with "instant everything" (including instant memberships); anyway I never got around to the snail mail, so I didn't rejoin at the time. Since then it seems the procedure has been changed yet again, and streamlined once more (thank goodness), so this time I rejoined by registering online. There's just that one little restriction though, on links--which I trust will go away after I've reached 30 posts or whatever.
I hope Grey Hunter's picture does turn out to be the right Caroline Luard. "Handsome" or otherwise, it looks just right for the period.
granger
10th April 2007, 10:48 AM
Hi granger,
Yes, I ran into that same rigmarole. Before that though, I posted for a while on Casebook back in 2002, when new members could register online with no hassle. After a lapse, I came back intending to post again, only to find that even previous members were now required to go through the snail mail procedure you described before resuming their activity on the board. I guess we're all spoiled these days with "instant everything" (including instant memberships); anyway I never got around to the snail mail, so I didn't rejoin at the time. Since then it seems the procedure has been changed yet again, and streamlined once more (thank goodness), so this time I rejoined by registering online. There's just that one little restriction though, on links--which I trust will go away after I've reached 30 posts or whatever.
I hope Grey Hunter's picture does turn out to be the right Caroline Luard. "Handsome" or otherwise, it looks just right for the period.
Hi Gordon: I am a member of a Black Dahlia discussion board which will not allow PM's until you have made 75, yes 75 postings!!! WHY!!!
No more on the subject, as we will be chastised for going off thread subject!!
Appleby
16th May 2007, 02:28 PM
This is indeed an intriguing case! As a first-time contributor I have a number of questions which others may be able to answer.
First, the reference to Churchill and the revolver used to murder Mrs. Luard prompts me to ask whether the opinion quoted was given by him in 1908, when he was President of the Board of Trade, or later on when he was Home Secretary? And was it based on information about the case provided by the police or merely motivated by sympathy for a fellow officer who, like him, had served in South Africa?
Second, obviously much in this case turns on the evidence given by Annie Wickham and Daniel Kettel about hearing the shots at around 3.15pm on the day in question. If, as I understand, Annie Wickham was at Frankfield House - by my calculation a good 700 yards from the murder scene - is it credible that she actually heard anything? In this context I read, only last night, a confession written by Samuel Herbert Dougal, the Moat Farm Murderer, published by the Sun newspaper after his execution on 8 July 1903. This says, in part, "Of course, I know all about firearms, and when the wind was in a certain direction I fired the revolver off several times in the coach-house, in order to see if any one heard it while they were in the back of the house. I was very glad to find that neither Miss Holland nor the servant heard any report……".
I suggest that, in the Moat Farm case, the coach-house was a good deal less than 700 yards from "the back of the house" and I cannot believe that, other than in ideal conditions, the sound of a revolver shot will carry almost half a mile.
Third, although Luard may have had the opportunity of murdering his wife, no one has yet suggested what his motive might have been.
Fourth, it is suggested here that John Churton Collins "went down to Sevenoaks in September 1908 to conduct his own investigation and drowned in a puddle while out walking" and that there may be something sinister in his death. However, my understanding is that Collins was "found drowned in four feet of brackish water in a dyke" near Lowestoft on 25 September 1908, having gone there on his doctor’s instructions, following a period of deep depression. An inquest was held and a verdict of accidental death was the outcome, although his pocket contained sedatives and some lines from Piers Plowman that suggested suicide might have been a more appropriate verdict. Is this a distorted account of what actually occurred?
I would be interested in hearing your views.
mayerling
16th May 2007, 02:59 PM
Hello Appleby,
Regarding Churchill and the revolver - I'm a little confused. Looking back at the previous comments up to February the only Churchill mentioned (that I saw) was gun expert Edward Churchill (uncle of the Crown's expert on firearms in many capital cases, Robert Churchill). If you actually refer to Sir Winston, could you refer me to the quote you were discussing.
In THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF MURDER by Colin Wilson and Pat Pitman there is an appendix that mentions a theory that the killer of Caroline Luard was John Alexander Dickman, and that Dickman's execution for killing the money courier John Nisbet on a train with a revolver (a case based on some rather slender pieces of information and evidence) was due to the determination of several
people (including then Home Secretary WInston Churchill) to make sure Dickman hanged this time because they could not get him for killing Mrs. Luard, and driving her husband to suicide. Supposedly Churchill was a close friend of the Luards. It is possible he knew him, but in reading some biographies of Churchill's early life, he was a close friend of General Frederick
Lugard, a figure of some note in British African imperialist policies.
Dickman, however, is still a leading suspect in the murder of Mrs. Luard - supposedly he had swindled her of some money, and she threatened to go to the police. So he silenced her.
As for Churton Collins, he was a well known expert in English literature (he had a notable contention with Sir Edmund Gosse over one of Gosse's books on Elizabethan literary studies). Some would call Collins a beligerent eccentric. He was a founding member of "Our Society" (the London Crime
Club) and he was quite interested in old cases. The general feeling is that
Collins (in poor health) may have overmedicated, stumbled into that pool
of water, and drowned in his delerium. Suicide is also possible. But the fact that he was there to investigate the Seal Chart Murder leads to a third possibility of death by murder: but it's not the strongest possibility.
Best wishes,
Jeff
granger
16th May 2007, 03:29 PM
It was EDWIN John Churchill who was the Home Office gun expert in the Luard case.
Winston Churchill had a vague connection with the case, in as much he was said to have been friends with Charles and Carolyn Luard. In Bernard Taylor's excellent 80 page chapter on the case, in the book, 'Perfect Murder, he questions there could ever have been such a friendship, simply because of their age difference.
Bernard Taylor indicates the distance between Frankfield Farm and the summerhouse as being 'three hundred yards'.
granger
29th May 2007, 11:05 AM
Second, obviously much in this case turns on the evidence given by Annie Wickham and Daniel Kettel about hearing the shots at around 3.15pm on the day in question. If, as I understand, Annie Wickham was at Frankfield House - by my calculation a good 700 yards from the murder scene - is it credible that she actually heard anything?
I have just read that the police did carry out tests to see if the gun shots could have been heard from their home. The verdict was that they could, and could have even been heard from a further distance.
sreid
29th May 2007, 01:20 PM
Hi Granger,
Hearing a gunshot when you're listening for it and hearing it another time when you're not then recognizing it as such and then noting the time is something else altogether. It sounds a little suspect to me but I guess I'm just the suspicious type.
Stan
granger
29th May 2007, 05:06 PM
Hi Granger,
Hearing a gunshot when you're listening for it and hearing it another time when you're not then recognizing it as such and then noting the time is something else altogether. It sounds a little suspect to me but I guess I'm just the suspicious type.
Stan
Hi Stan: What sounds 'a little suspect?'
sreid
29th May 2007, 05:33 PM
Hi Granger,
The fact that they heard a noise, thought it was a gun in the far off distance and then looked at the clock. A lot of things can sound like a gun and if I heard something of that sort I wouldn't look at the clock. This is a case where the time is critical; an estimate that was even 5 minutes off could be huge. I'd also have to wonder how synchronized the clocks in the homes and at the golf course were. This was a day when people didn't have a radio or TV to keep times pretty much the same. I think the main way to keep time back then was to check with a courthouse clock or something like that either visually or by a chime. I wonder if there was a chime all these people could hear and if they were all that diligent about setting their timepieces.
StanComment
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granger
29th May 2007, 07:36 PM
Hi Granger,
The fact that they heard a noise, thought it was a gun in the far off distance and then looked at the clock. A lot of things can sound like a gun and if I heard something of that sort I wouldn't look at the clock. This is a case where the time is critical; an estimate that was even 5 minutes off could be huge. I'd also have to wonder how synchronized the clocks in the homes and at the golf course were. This was a day when people didn't have a radio or TV to keep times pretty much the same. I think the main way to keep time back then was to check with a courthouse clock or something like that either visually or by a chime. I wonder if there was a chime all these people could hear and if they were all that diligent about setting their timepieces.
Stan
Hi Stan: Point taken. Mind you I've been such a crime buff that if I ever see any thing slightly suspicious I look at my watch, just in the hope I will be the only witness in some future unsolved mystery that will be discussed one day on these boards!! In the Luard casethere were also another couple of witnesses who gave times, including, I believe, a vicar who was out on a photographic expedition in the woods with group of ladies. (hey hey!!!). The vicar saw Luard twice, and eventually gave him, and his dog, a lift home.
By the way, there is a new book out on the crime:-
Edwardian Murder
Diane Janes
£11.49 Delivered
RRP: £14.99 | You save: £3.50 (23%)
Pre-order | Due for release on 21/06/2007
http://images.play.com/SiteCSS/Play/...button/buy.gif (http://www.play.com/Books/Books/-/17...re&add=3322534)
Review
[/URL]
Caroline Luard was shot near Ightham in Kent in 1908. In 1910, John Nisbet, a colliery cashier, was murdered on a train in Northumberland. Three days after the crime, police arrested a man called John Dickman, who was subsequently executed. Is it conceivable that John was guilty of both murders? This book provides an account of both murders.
Details
[URL="http://www.play.com/Books/Books/-/173/230/-/3322534/Edwardian-Murder/Product.html?searchtype=genre#top"] (http://www.play.com/Books/Books/-/173/230/-/3322534/Edwardian-Murder/Product.html?searchtype=genre#top)
AuthorDiane Janes
PublisherSutton Publishing Ltd (UK)
Year2007
ISBN9780750947800
FormatHARDBACK - 336 Pages
granger
30th May 2007, 02:11 PM
PS: By the way, 'Edwardian Murder' will not be published until Autumn 2007.
sreid
30th May 2007, 03:19 PM
Hi Granger,
Since the title of that book is Edwardian Murder, is it just about Luard/Dickman or does it include others such as George Storrs, Peasenhall and Crippen?
Stan
granger
30th May 2007, 04:25 PM
Hi Granger,
Since the title of that book is Edwardian Murder, is it just about Luard/Dickman or does it include others such as George Storrs, Peasenhall and Crippen?
Stan
Hi Stan: From the review, I would say it concentrates just on the supposed Luard/Dickman link. I gather the book presents some newly sourced evidence.
I gather that the Crippen murder was only just Edwardian by a few weeks.
Clem
30th May 2007, 04:34 PM
Hi Granger
Did you know that Dickman was also implicated in the murder of Herman Cohen, a Jewish money lender, who was murdered in Sunderland in 1909?
Regards Clem
sreid
30th May 2007, 04:39 PM
Hi Granger,
Thanks. That period was certainly a rich one for classic crimes. In addition to the ones above, there was also Mary Money, Oscar Slater as well as Emily Dimmock and that's just in the U.K.
Stan
granger
30th May 2007, 05:10 PM
Hi Granger
Did you know that Dickman was also implicated in the murder of Herman Cohen, a Jewish money lender, who was murdered in Sunderland in 1909?
Regards Clem
Hi Clem: Thanks for that. Yes, I have read that somewhere, but have to admit that I am not conversant with the facts. Some more research to be done!
regards
Granger
sreid
30th May 2007, 05:17 PM
This Dickman guy is starting to look like one of those individuals who's handy to use when assuaging the embarrassment of having an unsolved case on your books - sort of like a Henry Lee Lucas.
Stan
Clem
30th May 2007, 05:22 PM
Hi Granger
Have all the facts on the Cohen murder, if it's of any help (regarding newspapers) the murder took place on the 7th March 1909. The local Jewish community believe the murderer to be Dickman. Not so the police of the time.
Regards clem
innocent bystander
7th December 2007, 08:57 PM
I dont know lots about this but I happen to live in Frankfield. Mrs Wickham lived in my house - her husband was the coachman for the Wilkinson family who owned the main house and the estate including the summerhouse where Mrs Luard was shot. Presumably Mrs Wickham worked in the main house for the Wilkinsons also.
The summerhouse has long gone, i think it may have been timber built so has rotted and the fish ponds are still there although not in use any more and one of them has dried out. They are all set in dense woods and I walk through this area regularly. The summer house might have only been 600-800yds from the main house but it would have sat on the other side of a small valley and to walk it you have to take a longer route which is probably a mile at least. I would have thought it quite possible to have heard a gun shot, the area is rural and quiet especially since there werent many cars around then. There are however other houses closer, Lower Frankfield is in the valley.
I think Mr and Mrs Luard were friends of the Wilkinsons and they let them use the summerhouse from time to time.
sreid
7th December 2007, 09:26 PM
Hi IB,
Do you know if the summerhouse was built on any sort of durable foundation such as stone or concrete? If so, do you know if it might still be there either exposed or under a thin layer of earth?
Stan
granger
7th December 2007, 09:29 PM
I dont know lots about this but I happen to live in Frankfield. Mrs Wickham lived in my house - her husband was the coachman for the Wilkinson family who owned the main house and the estate including the summerhouse where Mrs Luard was shot. Presumably Mrs Wickham worked in the main house for the Wilkinsons also.
The summerhouse has long gone, i think it may have been timber built so has rotted and the fish ponds are still there although not in use any more and one of them has dried out. They are all set in dense woods and I walk through this area regularly. The summer house might have only been 600-800yds from the main house but it would have sat on the other side of a small valley and to walk it you have to take a longer route which is probably a mile at least. I would have thought it quite possible to have heard a gun shot, the area is rural and quiet especially since there werent many cars around then. There are however other houses closer, Lower Frankfield is in the valley.
I think Mr and Mrs Luard were friends of the Wilkinsons and they let them use the summerhouse from time to time.
Hi Innocent Bystander:
There was an agreement that the Luards could wander freely on the Wilkinson's estate.
I have heard conflicting stories about whether or not any part of the summerhouse survives. It certainly was not pulled down immediately after the murder, as incorrectly stated in the book 'Perfect Murder'. I was under the impression that it was still possible to locate the exact spot as there was still evidence of its footprint. (what I don't know). Is there any chance you could take a couple of photographs of the area when next on one of your walks?
innocent bystander
7th December 2007, 09:47 PM
stan,
The fish ponds are on the route of a footpath whereas the site of the summerhouse on private land so I've never tried to look for it. Perhaps I should ask my neighbour if i could go up there! The original owners, the Wilkinsons were very rich, they built the whole estate from scratch in 1862/7 including the local primary school, church, local cottages and a couple of farms. Everything was constructed to top specification so I imagine the summerhouse would have been the same and there would be some traces somewhere. But I dont fancy tresspassing to find out just in case I get shot!
sreid
7th December 2007, 10:47 PM
Thanks for that information IB. I think if Granger and I could get in there we'd go over the area with a metal detector looking for spent slugs.
Stan
sreid
7th December 2007, 10:50 PM
P.S.
I wonder if there might be a book in the works for the centenary.
Stan
Grey Hunter
8th December 2007, 10:39 AM
P.S.
I wonder if there might be a book in the works for the centenary.
Stan
Recently published is Edwardian Murder: Ightam and the Morpeth Train Robbery by Diane Janes, Stroud, Sutton Publishing, 2007, available on Amazon.
Grey Hunter
8th December 2007, 12:28 PM
I see that Nick Warren has an article on the Luard Case in the latest (October) issue of Ripperana.
granger
8th December 2007, 12:38 PM
Recently published is Edwardian Murder: Ightam and the Morpeth Train Robbery by Diane Janes, Stroud, Sutton Publishing, 2007, available on Amazon.
Hi Grey Hunter: Thanks for that information. I was in correspondence with the author earlier in the year, when the book was supposed to have been published, and she inferred there was a hold up. Must order my copy. From what she told me it should be a good read as Ms Janes told me, in the course of her research, that she had obtained never before published information on the case. I will be interested to see her evidence on the link between John Dickman and Caroline Luard. (NEVER!!!). I also believe she also delves into the possible friendship between the Luards and Winston Churchill. To date, no connection has ever been proved.
How can I get hold of that Ripperana article?
Innocent Bystander: Doubt if you would get shot, not after all the bad publicity. Man traps maybe! I understand from another authority on the case, Mr Monty Larkin, that the present owners are very approachable in respect of visiting the loaction of the summerhpuse. I have a copy of Mr Larkin's rare excellent booklet, 'The Seal Chart Murder', which is full of interviews with locals in the area who knew the Luards. There is also reference to the Wickham's and Frankfield House. If you are interested in a (free) photostat copy of the thirty odd pages, send me a PM with your contact details. You may also be interested to know that Monty Larkin periodically gives lectures on the case in your area.
Stan: Now that would be a excellent idea. maybe we could arrange it next year on a nice summer's day. Book your flight!!!!! (LOL)
sreid
9th December 2007, 04:54 AM
I wish Julian Fellowes would get on this one.
Stan
granger
9th December 2007, 02:27 PM
I wish Julian Fellowes would get on this one.
Stan
I agree. Some of these unsolved crimes would an excellent TV. although I was extremely disappointed by both the choice and content of JF's last TV series which I doubt you have seen. I would also like to see the Wallace case up for discussion especially as most of the locations have escaped demolition.
granger
9th December 2007, 03:39 PM
Found this rather less retouched pic of Caroline Luard in the car. At one point I thought it was a different photograph!
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CRIMEluardC2.jpg
The other one:
http://forum.casebook.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=502&d=1138915244
Oh, that didn't work. Why did it not paste the pic????
sreid
9th December 2007, 06:19 PM
Hi Granger,
I have the Most Mysterious Murder series on DVD that starts with Bravo and ends with Erroll. What did his new series include? In one of the DVD extras JF talks about a potential new set and says that they might go beyond British cases. If I remember correctly, he also said that the cases would be bracketed by the beginning of photography and ending with the termination of capitol punishment in the U.K.
Luard and Wallace would be top choices for a second five. There are so many good ones it would be hard to winnow down for the remaining three. Off the top of my head, I'd say Black Dahlia, Cleveland Torso and Jack the Stripper. Regarding those last two, he also says that he's not all that interested in serial killers but Croydon was a serial killer and it was in the first collection.
StanComment
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granger
10th December 2007, 05:57 PM
I have the Most Mysterious Murder series on DVD that starts with Bravo and ends with Erroll. What did his new series include? In one of the DVD extras JF talks about a potential new set and says that they might go beyond British cases.
Hi Stan: An apology. I think the series you refer to was JF's last. I was getting mixed up with a recent UK regional TV series called Roy Marsden's Casebook, This series was not very good and dealt with crimes in the SW area, all of which were pretty obscure.
sreid
10th December 2007, 06:15 PM
Hi Granger,
No problem. With all the interesting unsolved cases, you'd think a weekly series would be easy to come up with. There are literally hundreds worldwide that are famous at least in crime study circles. We had a top twenty show here last night and the top one was JonBenet Ramsey. The voters must have been from a grocery store shopping line.
Stan
sreid
12th December 2007, 01:23 AM
Check your PM Barry.
It looks like someone is trying to turn this case into another Green Bicycle.
Stan
granger
12th December 2007, 11:55 AM
Check your PM Barry.
It looks like someone is trying to turn this case into another Green Bicycle.
Stan
Hi Stan
No sign of any PM. I have PM'd you.
You have intrigued me on this one. As it would have been almost impossible for someone to have ridden 1908 bicycle, green or otherwise, through them there Kent woods, I can only assume a new theory must have something to do with the dead bird which was supposedly found dead near Bella Wright's body.
Someone out shooting, and killed her by mistake??? Very interesting, but wasn't it thought that Caroline Luard was killed, or brought down initially, by a blow to the head. Mind you with Edwardian forensics, I would have thought that difficult to ascertain. If this is the theory, why should the culprit not have raised the alarm immediately, and own up to an accident, even if it wasn't one!
OR: General Luard rides furiously away form the scene of the crime having parked a bike in the nearby lane. I think that theory has also been explored by amateur sleuths. No way, someone would have seen him, as in deed witnesses saw him walking en route to the golf course.
sreid
12th December 2007, 05:53 PM
Hi Granger,
I didn't get your PM reply so something must be wrong - sent you an email today. We'll see how that goes.
Luard on the bike was a theory of mine (perhaps I wasn't the first - don't know) to explain how he could have picked up some time. I don't believe he would have had to use it the entire distance. It's pretty far-fetched I admit but it's the main reason I can't rule Mr. Luard out 100%.
The article does posit the accident theory and I agree that it doesn't make much sense. That was why I mentioned Green Bicycle.
Stan
granger
26th December 2007, 03:09 PM
I see that Nick Warren has an article on the Luard Case in the latest (October) issue of Ripperana.
Thanks to sreid I was able to read the article, which in my opinion, is very confusing, and yields nothing new, except that Ightham is pronounced 'Item'. He mentions a Dr Bosanquet, who, apparently, ten years ealier, was 'involved' in the disposing of his .320 revolver in a pond. What this has to do with the Luard case eludes me?
He innacurately states that 'such a vagrant (the murderer) was most unlikely in the summer of 1908, especially in rural Kent'. (sic). At that time there were many such persons coming together for the hop and fruit picking seasons.
sreid
26th December 2007, 05:50 PM
Hi Granger,
I didn't know about the wooden post that was supposedly used for target practice if indeed there was such a thing. Like I said, I've only read about the murder in case study books like The Mammoth Book of Murder.
Stan
sreid
26th December 2007, 06:26 PM
P. S.
That article was just a fractional effort compared to yours getting me that Wallace publication.
Stan
granger
26th December 2007, 08:46 PM
P. S.
That article was just a fractional effort compared to yours getting me that Wallace publication.
Stan
Hi Stan.
That was nice of you. I guess for that, in the New Year, I will have to scour the UK and get you a cheap copy each, of the book, Perfect Murder, and Issue 129 of 'Murder Casebook'.
tel
26th December 2007, 09:38 PM
For what it's worth, I got hold of a very good copy, and remarkably cheap, of 'Perfect Murder' on ebay a couple of weeks back. Certainly worth having.
Can't find my #129 of 'Casebook' tho'
sreid
18th January 2008, 08:50 PM
Hi all,
Does anyone know where Dickman's gun(s) is, such as an evidence room or private collection? If it could be located and matched ballistically to slugs found in the area of Caroline's murder, that would be pretty close to proof that he did it although it wouldn't necessarily show that he acted alone.
Stan
granger
20th January 2008, 08:50 PM
Hi all,
Does anyone know where Dickman's gun(s) is, such as an evidence room or private collection? If it could be located and matched ballistically to slugs found in the area of Caroline's murder, that would be pretty close to proof that he did it although it wouldn't necessarily show that he acted alone.
Stan
Hi Stan:
I would have thought if anyone would know the answer to your question, it would be you!!
Are you sure Dickman's gun was actually retained?
Maybe Diane Janes' new book will throw up some evidence. I have ordered a copy from my local library.
sreid
21st January 2008, 01:09 AM
Hi Granger,
No, I don't know if Dickman's gun was retained. I just assumed that it was because the likes of Ruth Ellis' was. About the only practical way to get rid of a gun is to melt it down and that's not even that practical. A gun is the only mechanical device that is designed to last forever.
Stan
Graham
21st January 2008, 01:14 AM
Hi Granger,
No, I don't know if Dickman's gun was retained. I just assumed that it was because the likes of Ruth Ellis' was. About the only practical way to get rid of a gun is to melt it down and that's not even that practical.
Stan
Stan,
Any idea what happened to Hanratty's gun?
Here in the UK whenever there's a 'gun amnesty', we see footage of shooters being loaded into an induction furnace for melting down....
Cheers,
Graham
sreid
21st January 2008, 01:22 AM
Hi Graham,
I would expect the police still have Hanratty's gun if they know what's good for them but I don't know. They still have the guns from Tottenham I believe and that was about the same time as Luard, January 1909.
Stan
granger
21st January 2008, 01:48 AM
Hi Graham,
I would expect the police still have Hanratty's gun if they know what's good for them but I don't know. They still have the guns from Tottenham I believe and that was about the same time as Luard, January 1909.
Stan
Tottenham???
Enlighten me please.
sreid
21st January 2008, 02:07 AM
Hi Granger,
The Tottenham Outrage where anarchists shot it out with police. A 10-year-old boy was killed by a stray bullet as was a PC at point blank range. I believe the two men were killed perhaps one by police and the other by suicide but I don't remember for sure.
Stan
sreid
21st January 2008, 02:39 AM
P.S.
Upon review, both men were apparently slightly wounded but killed themselves when they saw they had no chance of escape.
Stan
mayerling
21st January 2008, 03:49 AM
Hi Stan and all,
The "Tottenham Outrage" of 1909 is like a prelude to the murders of three police constables at Houndsdich in 1910, followed by the Siege of Sidney Street - they all involve Russian based anarchists living in the East End of London. Best account of it is THE HOUNDSDITCH MURDERS (English Title) or THE SIEGE OF SIDNEY STREET (U.S. title) by Donald Rumbelow - his second major work, and the one that just preceeded THE COMPLETE JACK THE RIPPER.
Two anarchists committed a robbery and commendeered an electric streetcar for their getaway after shooting it out with police, and killing a Constable and a small boy. The tram driver fled, but they forced the conductor to keep the tram going. Finally, after a prolonged chase, the anarchists fled into a shed in a nearby woods. There they shot themselves, one surviving about a week before succumbing to his wounds.
They were connected to the anarchists who were caught in the burglary in Houndsditch that led to the killing of three constables and wounding of two others. Those particular anarchists were the ones that were found holed up in the building at Sidney Street.
Although Mr. Rumbelow debunks a possible fourth connection, rumors have spread over the years that the murder of Leon Beron at Clapham Commons in January 1911 was due to his being a police spy whose information led to the police surrounding the anarchists and destroying them at Sidney Street. If this is true one wonders how Steinie or Stinie Morrison fit into this series of events (as he was the one tried for Beron's murder).
So much for one daisy chain. Now the other one linking Mrs. Luard and the killing of John Nisbet by John Alexander Dickman.
Jeff
Graham
22nd January 2008, 11:19 PM
Can anyone recommend to me a decent book about the Luard murder? All I've read about it has been in the form of highly-condensed pieces in various anthologies of unsolved murder.
Cheers,
Graham.
granger
23rd January 2008, 07:48 PM
Can anyone recommend to me a decent book about the Luard murder? All I've read about it has been in the form of highly-condensed pieces in various anthologies of unsolved murder.
Cheers,
Graham.Comment
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The Perfect Murder. Long chapter by Bernard Taylor. Best account to date. Often available in Ebay.
Murder Casebook No 129 magazine. Copies pretty well always available cheap on Ebay. Some excellent pix.
The Seal Chart Murder. Small booklet by Monty Parkin. Rare, but obtainable. Only 30 pages so I can let you have a photocopy of the booklet if interested.
Edwardian Murder: The Ightham and Morpeth Train Robbery by Diane Janes. New book, just published. Available Amazon £10.95. Not read it yet.
If you haven't already done so, I think it a good idea to peruse all the pages on this thread, as some excellent details provided by members.
Cheers
Granger
Graham
26th January 2008, 12:31 AM
The Perfect Murder. Long chapter by Bernard Taylor. Best account to date. Often available in Ebay.
Murder Casebook No 129 magazine. Copies pretty well always available cheap on Ebay. Some excellent pix.
The Seal Chart Murder. Small booklet by Monty Parkin. Rare, but obtainable. Only 30 pages so I can let you have a photocopy of the booklet if interested.
Edwardian Murder: The Ightham and Morpeth Train Robbery by Diane Janes. New book, just published. Available Amazon £10.95. Not read it yet.
If you haven't already done so, I think it a good idea to peruse all the pages on this thread, as some excellent details provided by members.
Cheers
Granger
Hiya Granger.
Thanks for this. When I can, I'll follow up your leads and have a damn good read.
Cheers,
Graham
granger
26th January 2008, 02:32 PM
Hiya Granger.
Thanks for this. When I can, I'll follow up your leads and have a damn good read.
Cheers,
Graham
Hi Graham
Let me know if you want a copy of 'The Seal Chart Murder'. Just PM me your address. It will be on the house.
Ben
26th January 2008, 04:17 PM
Fascinating thread. I've just realised that the area under scrutiny is very much my stomping ground; I must have walked past "the spot" on several occasions. Judging from Grey Hunter's maps, it must have occured very close to a small hamlet called Stone Street, home to one of my favourite pubs. Nestled just north of the Green Sand Ridge, it's a beautiful area that belies the dark history I've just been reading about!
All the best,
Ben
granger
29th January 2008, 03:08 PM
Fascinating thread. I've just realised that the area under scrutiny is very much my stomping ground; I must have walked past "the spot" on several occasions. Judging from Grey Hunter's maps, it must have occured very close to a small hamlet called Stone Street, home to one of my favourite pubs. Nestled just north of the Green Sand Ridge, it's a beautiful area that belies the dark history I've just been reading about!
All the best,
Ben
Hi Ben: I would be very grateful if next time you are in the area you could check whether or not anything remains of the summerhouse. I know the upper structure has long gone, but I have read the odd article which hints there is evidence of bits of the 'foundations' being still just visible. I would also love to see a pic of the very actual location, as I am unsure whether or not the woodland remains. Can you help?
Cheers
Granger.
Ben
29th January 2008, 03:14 PM
Hi Granger,
I'd be very happy to help.
With my curiosity piqued after discovering the general locality of the murder, I compared the old maps with my new ordinance surveys, and managed to pinpoint the exact location. It'll mean hopping over the fence into private land, but that hasn't deterred me before! The woodland is very much still there, and would probably cover the spot we're interested in.
Will get back to you with photographs!
All the best,
Ben
granger
29th January 2008, 04:24 PM
Hi Granger,
I'd be very happy to help.
With my curiosity piqued after discovering the general locality of the murder, I compared the old maps with my new ordinance surveys, and managed to pinpoint the exact location. It'll mean hopping over the fence into private land, but that hasn't deterred me before! The woodland is very much still there, and would probably cover the spot we're interested in.
Will get back to you with photographs!
All the best,
Ben
Hi Ben: Great!
I have heard from a good source that the owners of the land (owners of Frankfield House??) are quite approachable to obtain permission to view the site. Maybe they would be able to help with the location. There is also a guy called Monty Larkin who lives in your area who is perhaps the most knowlegible person on the murder.
Regarding OS maps. On the J the R discussion boards there has been some excellent work by members in overlaying Google Earth images with old OS maps. This is something which is completely outside my grasp of technology, but it would be great if someone could manage this with summerhouse location.
Cheers
Granger
granger
29th January 2008, 08:22 PM
Re. my last posting. Monty Larkin should read Monty Parkin!
Ben
4th February 2008, 05:45 PM
Well, that was an eerie experience.
I found the site with no trouble at all, although as I mentioned in an earlier post, it took some meticulous prior comparisons between old maps and new OS ones, coupled with a familiarity with the locale.
I can confirm that remnants of the summerhouse do exist in the form of several misshapen bricks - mostly covered by soil and autumn foliage - some red-brick roof tiles, and a broken-off piece of lead drainpipe. I also saw what I took to be very elderly fencing which must have marked the perimeter of the grounds in 1908. Unfortunately, the light was fading fast at the time of my visit, so I'll have to return for photographs.
I've walked around the general area of Stone Street and Ightham many a time, but that particular area of woodland gave me the wotsits! I half considered retreiving the drainpipe remnant, but reconsidered, thinking it a little ghoulish. It was moss-covered, and not readily distinguishable from a log at first.
Pics to come!
Ben
sreid
4th February 2008, 06:34 PM
Hi Ben,
Good job! I'll be looking forward to seeing those pictures.
Any chance that the fence post is the one mentioned in the latest Ripperana article on the case? That is, the one that was supposedly used for target practice in the Luard murder time.
I understand the temptation to pick up a souvenir from the site but you are absolutely right to resist that. It would technically be theft but more seriously it is a historical site of a sort and even possibly evidence although that chance is extremely remote. Was it a pipe to a septic tank or cesspool? It could be a place where evidence was hidden if so. If there is anything like a septic tank or cesspool around, there might be some caution in order since it could cave in if you walked over it.
It must have been a creepy experience for sure.
Stan
Ben
4th February 2008, 07:00 PM
Hey Stan,
I'm looking forward to making a second visit when the weather is more photo-friendly. I'd also have more time to explore the area in better lighting conditions.
I wasn't quite sure what to make of the drainpipe. It was about two-feet long, broken off at both ends, and looked pretty ancient and moss covered. My initial insitinct said drainpipe, but I wouldn't rule out a pipe to septic tank. The fencing comprised two or three similarly ancient and well-worn fence posts, each about three feet in height and very well spaced out. Behind them was a deep and sharply slanting slope leading into sort of trough of land that ran paralell to, and to the left of, the driveway leading to the house. It's now covered with huge dead trees from the storm of 1987, but I thought at the time that there are worse spots for the concealment or evidence!
I'm not familiar with the Ripperana article, but if you describe it, I'd be able to tell you if it resembled anything I spotted. What little red roofing I found under the earth corresponds well with pictorial evidence:
All the best,
Ben
sreid
4th February 2008, 07:39 PM
Hi Ben,
I just went over that Ripperana article again and, although it says that fence posts were inspected, it only specifically says that the posts of the veranda showed signs of being used for target practice. My memory of the account was a little off but I wouldn't be surprised a fence post or two was shot at on occasion. The article posited that Mrs. Luard's death might have been accidental and made to look like something else as a cover-up but I don't buy that.
Stan
granger
4th February 2008, 09:02 PM
Hey Stan,
I'm looking forward to making a second visit when the weather is more photo-friendly. I'd also have more time to explore the area in better lighting conditions.
I wasn't quite sure what to make of the drainpipe. It was about two-feet long, broken off at both ends, and looked pretty ancient and moss covered. My initial insitinct said drainpipe, but I wouldn't rule out a pipe to septic tank. The fencing comprised two or three similarly ancient and well-worn fence posts, each about three feet in height and very well spaced out. Behind them was a deep and sharply slanting slope leading into sort of trough of land that ran paralell to, and to the left of, the driveway leading to the house. It's now covered with huge dead trees from the storm of 1987, but I thought at the time that there are worse spots for the concealment or evidence!
I'm not familiar with the Ripperana article, but if you describe it, I'd be able to tell you if it resembled anything I spotted. What little red roofing I found under the earth corresponds well with pictorial evidence:
All the best,
Ben
Hi Ben: Thanks for the intriguing information. Wish I could get to the site so as to carry out a full survey of the remains (my old profession). I am looking forward to your pix. May I suggest you could take some close ups of any artifacts that you find. Mind you the pipes could have no connection with Casa. What sort of roof tile was it you found?
It mustn't be assumed the summerhouse necessarily had a cess pit.
vBulletin v3.6.0, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.Comment
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Hi, hope that worked OK as its my first attempt
annaComment
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Hi Pearlyanna: Thanks for the cache. As I thought images are not pasted. I just hope the members who posted all those excellent images will take time to post them again.'Nothing is obvious'.Comment
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Your welcome Granger, good luck with the photos.
annaComment
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Hi Anna and Granger,
Thanks for all that.
Does anyone know the trainman's name (engineer, fireman, conductor or whoever) and exactly what he or anyone saw? I've never seem what exactly made them so sure that it was a suicide. Was the border to the tracks wooded? All the accounts I have just say he threw himself in front of the train. There aren't any details. Was it a freight or passenger train?This my opinion and to the best of my knowledge, that is, if I'm not joking.
Stan ReidComment
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Frederick Bridges was the driver of the 9.00 passenger train, Maidstone to Paddock Wood. No mention of the fireman.Originally posted by sdreid View Post
Richard Harper-Signalman. (Not sure yet of his involvement).
From a photo I have seen, where the General commited suicide, the track was not in a wooded area. I believe he jumped out from behind a gate(?).
The driver said Luard wasn't knocked down by the train, but that he threw himself in front of the engine. Can't see the difference, can you?
He left a suicide note, and three telegram. Almost with a note of humour, he ended the note with instructions that he would be 'found somewhere on the line of the railway'. He was a man of his word!
ACKNOWLEDGEMENT: Most of the above information was taken from the newly published book, Edwardian Murder-Ightham and The Morpeth Train Murder by Diane Janes. I am reading this book at present, and hope to give a review.Last edited by Granger; 02-19-2008, 06:06 PM.'Nothing is obvious'.Comment
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Thanks Granger.
I wondered if there was any chance he could have been forced. That appears to be nearly impossible.
We did have a case here where a person was thrown onto the tracks to be killed.
In America and I assume everywhere, the fireman on steam trains was supposed to look ahead when not tending the flame. I believe he usually looked out the left side while the engineer viewed out the right.This my opinion and to the best of my knowledge, that is, if I'm not joking.
Stan ReidComment
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In Britain, the fireman's position in the cab varied from loco design,to loco design, and each region, or train company had its prfeference. There was a more preferred side for the driver, which I cannot remember off hand.Originally posted by sdreid View Post'Nothing is obvious'.Comment
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