The Sinking of the RMS Titanic and other ships.

[Celesta]

Something has been bothering me about the photo in post 402, of the boot and overlying black material.

The left edge of the black material has a layered look. Could this be congealed oil, or tar? Could it be a finely layered deposit of coal, or coal mixed with oil or tar?

[Archaic]

The Dark "Material" in Post #401 Photo & Possible 2nd Shoe

Hi Cel.

I was looking at that dark "layered" material in the photo on post #401 too, and it reminded me of the way a log of wood looks when it's been burned in a fire and what's left are layers of red-hot embers... you know, like in a camp-fire. But other parts of the dark material definitely look like some kind of fabric, especially where it seems to curve over "bumps" beneath it. I'm still leaning towards it being some sort of treated cotton canvas such as "oilskin", but is it a garment or an awning or a life-boat cover or- ??

Maybe it looks "layered" because of how it settled on the bottom combined with the fact that however durable the fabric, it's probably partially decomposing by now?

Assuming for the moment that it's something like a large oil-skin coat, or even an oil-skin coat & matching pair of oil-skin pants, if it were worn by a passenger at the time of sinking I would expect to see two shoes lying pretty close together, not just a single shoe.
(Or perhaps the second shoe is slightly out of this particular view?)

I enlarged the photo quite a bit, and it looks like there might be a second shoe just above the visible one. This possible "second shoe" is directly above the small bright lime-green object that's in turn directly above the visible shoe. On the opposite side of the shoe-like object, nearly touching it, is what appears to be a piece of bent rust-colored metal with some greenish corrosion.

The "shoe" looks more distinctly brown, as opposed to the dark fabric-like material, which looks pretty black. The "shoe" appears to be partially embedded in the sand and sticking upright. I think I can see the glint of small metal dots which could correspond to the metal grommets on a pair of lace-up shoes. If so, it's the upper side of the second shoe that's visible. Can you see them?

If there are a matched pair of shoes in that photo, I think it increases the likelihood of the dark material being some kind of garment, such as an oilskin coat or poncho, possibly with matching pants. Maybe one of Titanic's passengers or crew donned them as the ship was sinking, hoping to be better insulated from the icy water and freezing temperatures?

If it's a single shoe in that vicinity, I think it increases the chance that it's a random shoe, perhaps from a disintegrated suitcase, and a piece of treated canvas, perhaps a piece of ship's awning or the covering of a lifeboat or a collapsible life-boat. If it's indeed a matched pair of shoes, I think it's more likely to mark the site of sign of human remains. (But in that case the dark fabric could still be something other than a garment that just happened to come to rest on top of the sunken body.) Wish we could see a larger photograph of the area!

Best regards,
Archaic

PS: Didn't the article say this photo was taken years ago, I think in 2004, but kept from public view as it appears to show human remains? Didn't any of the subsequent commercial salvage operations attempt to lift the shoe(s) and the dark material?
Were salvage ops required to keep logs, maps, & video of what they picked up or disturbed, or did they at least do so voluntarily? If a salvage crew found human remains, I think they would have a financial interest in concealing that fact, as it could very well bring their commercial operations to a sudden halt.
- Aargh, wish I knew the answer!

[Celesta]

It has a cloth-like appearance, so I'm not ready to say it isn't cloth.

I've just been looking at this through a magnifier. The more I look, the more it looks like a big tar ball or some kind of deposit. If you look at the edge on the left side, it has a fissile quality, ie it's thinly layered. Under the magnifier the area in the center that drapes over is thicker than I first thought. It's like a deposit, so are the edges. It resembles some thinly bedded coal deposits, or other thinly bedded carbon-rich material. If it's cloth it's a large piece that folded over or bunched up. I'm not sure. I've seen tar balls that look similar to this.

I can see the resemblance to burned wood, too.

This link shows a huge tar ball.

http://naturescrusaders.wordpress.com/2010/07/09/tarball-stew-coming-to-beach-near-you/

[Archaic]

Tar and Pitch

Hi Celesta.

I see your point there about its appearance. That tar-ball in the photo was weird; at first glance it looked like some strange kind of animal he was holding up!

There would have been lots of coal on the ship, and multiple coal-burning ovens. Some of it must have been semi-burned when the ship went down. Doesn't it create tar and pitch? Then hot tar would have hit the icy water... would it spread out in a sheet, or stay in a lump?

I looked up Tar and Pitch:

"Tar and pitch, viscous, dark-brown to black substances obtained by the destructive distillation of coal, wood, petroleum, peat, and certain other organic materials. The heating or partial burning of wood to make charcoal yields tar as a byproduct and is an ancient method for the production of both tar and pitch. Coal tar is a residue in the manufacture of coal gas and coke.

By the application of heat, tar is separated into several materials, one of which is pitch. The terms tar and pitch are loosely applied to the many varieties of the two substances, sometimes interchangeably. For example, asphalt, which is naturally occurring pitch, is called mineral tar and mineral pitch. Tar is more or less fluid, depending upon its origin and the temperature to which it is exposed.

Pitch tends to be more solid. When ships were made of wood, tar had numerous uses, and an available supply of tar was an important factor in maritime growth. Tar made vessels watertight and protected their ropes from deterioration.

All but small quantities of the tar now produced is fractionally distilled to yield naphtha, creosote, carbolic oil, and other equally important crude products. Among the substances produced by refining the various crude materials are benzene, toluene, cresol, and phenol. Tar from pine wood is used in making soap and medicinal preparations. Pitch is used in the manufacture of roofing paper, in varnishes, as a lubricant, and as a binder for coal dust in the making of briquettes used as fuel. Coal-tar derivatives are used in the manufacture of dyes, cosmetics, and synthetic flavoring extracts." (From the The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, Columbia University Press.)

Hmmm....
Archaic

[Archaic]

Tar Ball

Hi Celesta. Just saw this photo of a tar-ball in the ocean, it does kind of resemble the photo. It looks viscous because it's fresh, but also rather fabric-like...more so than I'd imagined.

Tar-balls from an oil leak seem to float, but I'm guessing a hot molten one that was dumped on the ocean floor would cool very quickly, sink, and settle on the sea-bed.

Would the Titanic have carried barrels of oil or pitch that could have been spilled when the containers disintegrated? Maybe oil for the engine room?

What do you think?

B.

PS: Added second photo of a glob of tar from the ocean.

[Celesta]

Here's the photo that was embedded in the link I posted. This is a fresh tar ball, but you can see the sand and other fine material it's already incorporated. Note the ropy bit along the top left side.

[ATTACH]13779[/ATTACH]

The source for this photo is the following article:

http://naturescrusaders.wordpress.com/2010/07/09/tarball-stew-coming-to-beach-near-you

I'm not 100% certain that black material in your photo is a tar ball, but parts of it definitely have a layered appearance, almost shale-like in appearance.

[Robert]

For those researching the Titanic, this may be helpful :

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/heritage/titanic/crew/map/

[Celesta]

That was supposed to be 'ropy bit' on the right side.


Thanks, Robert, for the link.

[Vila]

I have one of those coats. They are indeed quite tough. Able to stand up to decades of hard wear and abuse.

Vila

[Bridewell]

I was trying to make out what the bluish green object was below the boot in Post 402. I'm wondering if it's the remains of a hip flask, which imploded under the pressure when it sank to that depth.

In Post 401 there's an object above the boot which looks as though it has a floral pattern and a handle - an oilskin wash-bag perhaps? Not sure.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Mayerling]

On missing deadly traps

My grandfather sailed with the White Star line for years on the Mauretania and the Olympic as a First class steward. When he told my grandma (born in 188!) that he was to be on the Titanic she was sooooo impressed- Now- following a 'night' in Liverpool he missed the boat train and hence the 'boat' she was a very angry woman...8 days later she was a very happy woman when he came back alive to Southampton...unlike 500 others!!! Later he had a similar experience in Manchester- and missed the Lusitania!!! Charmed me!!
Suz xx

Hello Suzy,

Your grandfather was luckier than one other person. Millionaire Alfred Vanderbilt was supposed to sail on the Titanic, but had to cancel at the last minute. It was lucky for him because he could not swim. Three years later he proved the fatality of that when he was on the Lusitania. Vanderbilt was not the only prominent millionaire who cancelled and survived. Mr. Henry Clay Frick (whose home and art collection remain a charming jewel in Manhattan on 5th Avenue) cancelled because his wife got sick. So did J. Pierpont Morgan (who was head of International Merchant Marine, which owned White Star). Morgan decided not to leave his French chateau for the maiden voyate (the Titanic had a special stateroom for him). Milton Hershey, of the chocolate company, also cancelled. An interesting sidelight was the historian and social critic Henry Adams. He was supposed to go to ENGLAND on the second trip of Titanic, and had his tickets. Of course he never used them.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

Graham - I am also in the process of reading The Sinking of J Bruce Ismay. If the reader is to be believed then yes, it does sound as if Lightoller was 'brown-nosing' Ismay.

After reading the first chapter, something occurred to me. After the Titanic sank, I wonder just how many of us would have consented to our lifeboat being turned around to go back for survivors?

It's a difficult one isn't it?

Hi Louisa,

Supposedly (and I wonder how true this is) many people in the boats recalled how in 1782 when HMS Royal George capsized and sank at Spithead anchorage, several boats tried to rescue some of the hundreds of sailors (many with their families on board that day) only to be overturned and lost with their crews as a result. More recently, in July 1898, a French liner, La Bourgoyne, had been in a collision off Sable Island, Nova Scotia. While it sank, many crew members had commandeered the lifeboats, and fought like beasts to prevent passengers in the water from getting into them. The loss (for that time) of 560 people was immense for an ocean liner disaster. Oddly enought, the same day (July 2nd) the battle of Santiago Bay in Cuba was won by a fleet under Admirals William Sampson and Winfield Schley. The Spaniard fleet under Admiral Cervera was destroyed, and a could of hundred Spanish sailors died, as well as one American. More died in the sinking of the ocean liner that same day.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

This centennial ends...

Hi all,

I saw the first sign that the Titanic's centennial was finished in the New York Times three weeks back. It was announced that Mr. Eric Larson signed to write his next non-fiction book, SEA OF MYSTERIES, and it would be about the sinking of the Lusitania.

My only question is if anyone will write a book about the Empress of Ireland first? For that matter will another book on the EASTLAND pop up too?

I have a note to bring forward here. 1912 is recalled for Captain Scott and his companions, and the Titanic tragedy. I noticed that it was the year that the dramatist August Strindberg and the novelist Bram Stoker both died. In the United States there was a remarkable once in history chance: Four first rate candidates running for President, of whom three became President:

Incumbent Republican: William Howard Taft
Progressive or "Bull Moose" ex-President: Theodore Roosevelt
Democrat: Woodrow Wilson
Socialist: Eugene Debs

It was a brutal election - Taft and Roosevelt had been friends but the latter felt the former betrayed the former's political policies. It literally ended with them calling each other names like "Honeyfugler" (Roosevelt called by Taft) and "Puzzlewit" (Taft called by Roosevelt).

Wilson had problems getting nominated (46 ballots!!) but his chief rival Champ Clark (Speaker of the House) miscalculated. He gave his version of a democratic liberal platorm.

Debs, the hero of labor for his work in the Pullman Strike, pushed a Socialist program.

Teddy would be shot by a nut named John Schrank in Milwaukee (Schrank disliked third term seekers). Roosevelt still delivered a speech he was scheduled to give, before going to the hospital.

Taft (who knew he'd lose - but wanted to make sure so would Roosevelt) lost his Vice President John S. Sherman a week before the election Nicholas Murray Butler agreed to replace Sherman, after being assured that Taft and he would lose (Butler was head of Columbia University).

Wilson won.

Finally in September 1912 a dreadful typhoon hit the Sea of Japan and the Chinese Seas. A Japanese liner was lost with over 1000 passengers. I know of no accounts of this tragedy that have ever been published.

Jeff

[sdreid]

The 40th anniversary of the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald is the 10th of this month and gave us song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vST6hVRj2A

[Mayerling]

I see that the tragically lost container ship, that was sunk in that hurricane last month, was finally located at a depth of 15,000 feet (further than the Titanic) off Bermuda. Sad for the 33 souls lost on her, but at least now they know her location (so she won't enter the "Bermuda Triangle" nonsense). The wreck will be visited by underwater, unmanned submergibles that will photograph the wreck and seek out the ship's black boxes.

Amazing how fast they found this ship in comparison to that missing Malaysian airliner, which so far has only yielded some wreckage on the island of Reunion in the Indian Ocean. But the container ship's last position was better established.