The Sinking of the RMS Titanic and other ships.

[Robert]

Phil, perhaps it was because for several years, Hitler did succeed, despite the worries and reservations of his followers. One of the Bolsheviks said that after seeing himself proved wrong and Lenin proved right on about five occasions, he concluded that Lenin must have the faculty of seeing ten feet into the ground. Maybe the leading Nazis felt this way about Hitler, The bad news for Hitler was, he himself fell victim to this delusion.

[jason_c]

Pick up any book on the holocaust, e.g. Sobibor, and you have a regime devoid of compassion and empathy, which ensures they lie firmly in the 'worst excesses of human existence' camp.

I wouldn;t disagree with that.

But the Final Solution was not decided upon until well after the war began (The Wansee Conference) and the concentration camp - per se - was not a Nazi invention. As Goebbels was always pleased to point out, that was a British invention during the Boer War.


Phil

Phil, or a Spanish invention in Cuba.


Which is not to hide our own role in building concentration camps. And it was death camps which the Nazi's "perfected".

[jason_c]

Phil, perhaps it was because for several years, Hitler did succeed, despite the worries and reservations of his followers. One of the Bolsheviks five occasions, he concluded that Lenin must have the faculty of seeing ten feet into the ground. Maybe the leading Nazis felt this way about Hitler, The bad news for Hitler was, he himself fell victim to this delusion.

I think this is certainly true. Hitler had brought a small factional Nazi party to power unlimited power in Germany. It was believed he had turned around the German economy too. And by 1940/41 they had all but defeated the allies in war. If Hitler said the Russians could be easily defeated then that must also be true. And to the easily influenced the final solution probably sounded as if it had merit..........

[Mayerling]

Let's start a new thread?

Fleetwood, Adam, Errata, Robert, and all others,

I have been guilty as all of you in what seems to be a serious thread here regarding German history to 1945, the Second World War and it's origins, German (and Hitlerian) blunders, the quality of leadership in the Third Reich, and the Holocaust. It's been really fascinating, particularly since we all seem so well versed on the subjects. Just one problem. Except for a 1943 UFA film that was anti British called TITANIC, and was a pretty well made film (whatever one thinks of its propaganda value to the Nazis), what has all of the last week's fascinating discussions got to do with the Sinking of the RMS Titanic and other naval disasters and mysteries (i.e. the Mary Celeste, what was on Sir George Tryon's mind when his orders led to the sinking of the HMS Victoria, what happened to the USS Cyclops). I think we shoud have a seperate World War II thread down here. It would be as active as the one on the ships.

Any reactions to my idea?

Jeff

[Errata]

Fleetwood, Adam, Errata, Robert, and all others,

Any reactions to my idea?

Jeff

Well the comedic comparisons between Hitler's Germany and The Titanic are endless, but I'll spare everyone and just go with

Sure.

[Adam Went]

The discussion has very much moved on from my last post but suffice it to say that Phil H, I agree with pretty much everything you've said there - the truth is that if you take their persecution out of the equation, the Nazis actually did a pretty good job of restoring the economy and national pride in the first few years of their reign. Unemployment rates plummeted, you no longer needed a wheelbarrow load of money to buy a loaf of bread, ordinary citizens took pride in who they were instead of being trodden down and living miserable lives under the conditions imposed by the Treaty of Versailles and the general economic climate of the 1920's. Hitler was massively popular in the 30's.

I can't remember who it was now but somebody once said that if Hitler had died in 1938, he would still to this day be hailed as one of the greatest leaders of the modern era.

But it certainly still is a touchy subject with some people, to give anything resembling praise to anything the Nazis did or anyone involved with the Nazi party. That's certainly very understandable, but in the interests of historical accuracy, they were not ALL that way.

If any of you get the chance, have a read of Alfons Heck's "A Child Of Hitler", it's a fascinating study of how a youth growing up in Nazi Germany was brought up eventually to be a leader of men near the end of the war, and the circumstances surrounding all of it.

Having gone on longer than I would have liked once again, yes Jeff, excellent idea - we should move this interesting discussion to its own thread.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Phil H]

I too support a new thread - this one on The Titanic has gone well off course!!

But I think this is an important and interesting discussion and clearly there are fantastically well-informed posters here on Casebook.

Thanks

Phil

[Fleetwood Mac]

Good idea.

Particularly as I couldn't disagree more with Adam's post.

They were idiots; the whole thing was a shambles.

I'lll leave that for the other thread: suffice to say a measure of their competence was starting wars and being destroyed. Yes, that's how competent they were. Even Stalin managed to avoid being destroyed, which, really, is the bare condition for government. Even a burrow owl can feed itself and stay alive until nature takes its toll, and while being able to experience pain; a burrow owl does not hold the ability to reason.

[Robert]

Yes, a new thread is called for.

[Phil H]

I have taken the liberty of starting a new thread here:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=194660#post194660

Phil

[Mayerling]

Well the comedic comparisons between Hitler's Germany and The Titanic are endless, but I'll spare everyone and just go with

Sure.

Yes, there is a comic element (dark comic element) to both, but I'll spare everyone too.

I'll join on the new thread, and leave this to the issue of shipwrecks, rather than ship-of-state or continents wrecks.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

Two recent underwater discoveries

Now that we got the thread back to shipwrecks, have you (especially you in the British Isles) been following the discovery of two torpeoded wrecks, one off the Irish coast that was a war casualty in 1941, and one nearer Africa with a fortune in silver meant for the British war effort and sunk in 1942 (I believe). I can't recall the ships names but the latter is going to be the site of reclaiming the treasure (the British government being a partner to that.

Jeff

[sdreid]

Does anyone know anything about Captain Smith's tattoos or the claim that he survived the sinking and died in Lima, Ohio during 1915? Sorry if this is aforementioned here.

[louisa]

Tattoos? Not heard of those but it's possible, as he was a seafaring man.

Survived and died in Lima? Not heard of that either and I'm a big big Titanic enthusiast.

You'll be telling us next that he escaped on a jet ski.

[sdreid]

It was supposedly in a 1940 issue of Life magazine.