Richard III and the princes in the Tower

[Mayerling]

Hi Jeff,

You didn't happen to save a copy of that issue, did you?

Hope you're well.

Best,

Cel

Hi Celesta,

I thought I saved the announcement but I appear to have lost it. However, I find I have one from last year that is similar in wording:

THis was from the New York Times Obituary page of Wednesday, August 22, 2007, P. A17.

PLANTAGENET -- Richard. Remember before God, Richard III, King of England and of those who fell on Bosworth Field, having kept faith, 22 August 1485.
Loyaulte me lie. http://www.r3.org

As you can see it is from the Richard III Society. I also have a 2002
copy of the same notice with the address

Richard III Society, American Branch,
P.O. Box 13786,
New Orleans, L.A. 70185 - 3786.

I don't know if that particular address is active...especially with hurricaine Gustav about to repulverize the Crescent City.

Jeff

[Celesta]

I.

The other thing is Shakespeare 'sucking up' to those in power, or possibly taking bribes: probably the thought of getting his head chopped off if he portrayed anyone connected with the PTB in a bad light was enough to persuade him to treat them more kindly than they may have deserved

A very reasonable assumption, Phryne! And probably most accurate!

Best,

Celesta

[Celesta]

If anyone missed it, every August 22nd there is a notice among the death notices in the New York Times in honor of King Richard III and the other loyal soldiers of his who fell at Bosworth Field. I thought I should make note of it here.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

You didn't happen to save a copy of that issue, did you?

Hope you're well.

Best,

Cel

[Celesta]

Hi all... just picked this up-

'The Daughter of Time'-Josephine Tey- is one of my favourites and as far as I'm prepared to say here is a reasonable theory- for a mildly entertaining case

How bizarre is that Jeff- Wonder who posts it??

Suzi

Suzi,

The last I heard there was a fairly well established RIII society here in the USA. Perhaps they posted it?

Cel

[Steve S]

.

Bosworth was one of the last battles fought on British soil in which archers played an important part. Just out of interest...

Certainly the last where both sides had large numbers...Stoke in 1487(the REAL last battle in the WotR) saw them used against the Yorkist Irish & Flemish troops & they did severe damage to the Scots at Flodden in 1513...Went over to Bosworth a couple of months ago,The re-fitted visitor centre is very good.
Steve

[Graham]

On a slightly different note, did anyone read A A Gill's piece in the Sunday Times Magazine on the battle of Towton, fought not long before Bosworth? Very interesting (if you can put up with Gill's inate and rather irritating snobbery), and as good a description as I've ever read about how mediaeval battles were fought.

Bosworth was one of the last battles fought on British soil in which archers played an important part. Just out of interest...

Cheers,

Graham

[Suzi]

As a matter of interest this is worth a read about the funeral/death of Josephine Tey http://www.r3.org/fiction/mysteries/tey_butler.html

[Suzi]

Just to remind you all of the complicity of this one -I'll post a couple of pics and something that made me laugh!!








Suz x

[Suzi]

Just a pic of Josephine Tey (Interesting)- and a rather disturbing pic of the new cover- Hmmmmmmmmmmm prefer my old much used one..........




Still an excellent read- if you haven't read it- read it!!!

Suz xx

[Suzi]

Hi all... just picked this up-

'The Daughter of Time'-Josephine Tey- is one of my favourites and as far as I'm prepared to say here is a reasonable theory- for a mildly entertaining case

How bizarre is that Jeff- Wonder who posts it??

Suzi

[Mayerling]

A Notice in the New York Times.

If anyone missed it, every August 22nd there is a notice among the death notices in the New York Times in honor of King Richard III and the other loyal soldiers of his who fell at Bosworth Field. I thought I should make note of it here.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

I agree about Shakespeare blackening people's names, but have a couple of thoughts about it:

Shakespeare wasn't a historian; he was a playwright - although he had some real people as characters in his plays, the plays were principally dramatic fiction.

The other thing is Shakespeare 'sucking up' to those in power, or possibly taking bribes: probably the thought of getting his head chopped off if he portrayed anyone connected with the PTB in a bad light was enough to persuade him to treat them more kindly than they may have deserved

Hi Phryne,

Actually you are quite right regarding Shakespeare's self interest and self-protection in "sucking up". I believe that another dramatist (possibly Ben Jonson) spent a few months in prison in 1605 or so when he wrote a play with a nasty character who was Scottish in it. "Gud King Jamie" did not like anything questioning his Scots heritage. Interestingly enough, King James VI had just issued a single protest to Elizabeth when his mother (Mary Queen of Scots) was executed in 1587. He did not do anything rasher, as he did not want to jeapardize his claim to the throne. But when he became King James I of England in 1603 he did do one act of considerable interest - he had Fotheringay Castle (where Mary was executed) taken apart stone by stone.

James by the way was at the center of many curious little mysteries:

1) was his father Henry, Lord Darnley (as is usually thought) or David Rizzio, the ill-fated Italian Secretary of Mary.

2) did he arrange the murders of the Master of Gowrie House and his brother Lord Ruthven in 1603, just as he was headed for London to assume his new throne, or did they attempt to either kidnap or slay James?

3) was the so-called "Gunpowder Plot" against James and his Parliament in 1605 really the idea of the Catholics involved (including Guy Fawks) or did James and his chief minister, Robert Cecil, scheme to entrap the Catholics in the plot?

4) did James know more about the slow-poisoning murder of Sir Thomas Overbury in the Tower of London from 1612-1613, that implicated his favorite
Robert Kerr, Earl of Somerset and his wive Francis, Countess of Somerset
(it was the biggest royal scandal of the day).

Best wishes,

Jeff

[Phryne Fisher]

I agree about Shakespeare blackening people's names, but have a couple of thoughts about it:

Shakespeare wasn't a historian; he was a playwright - although he had some real people as characters in his plays, the plays were principally dramatic fiction.

The other thing is Shakespeare 'sucking up' to those in power, or possibly taking bribes: probably the thought of getting his head chopped off if he portrayed anyone connected with the PTB in a bad light was enough to persuade him to treat them more kindly than they may have deserved

[Byzantine]

Shakspeare is at his most gooingly sentimental when he describes how the Princes were killed, which rather suggests that he possibly had a Tudor quid or two slipped into his pocket when he wrote 'Richard the Third'.

The bribe you are suggesting would be hardly necessary. The Tudor propaganda machine had already long portrayed Richard III as a human monster, a depiction evident in the works of Thomas More and Polydore Vergil.

Shakespeare was also flattering the monarchs of his age in other works of his. Notice his depiction of Banquo in "Macbeth". Banquo is portrayed as an innocent man destined to be the forefather of a line of kings which would last forever. However in the "Chronicles" (1587) by Raphael Holinshed, Shakespeare's favorite historical source, Banquo is merely an accomplish of Macbeth in the assassination of Duncan I of Scotland and the subsequent coup d'etat which earns him the throne.

The recasting of Banquo in a very different role was based on only one thing:this semi-legendary historical figure was though to be an ancestor to James VI of Scotland/James I of England. His eternal lineage of Royal descendants is simply Shakespeare sucking up to James.

[String]

Did the wicked uncle do it?


40 (give/take) years ago, when I read Josephine Tey's "The Daughter of Time". Richard's innocent, for my money, and those stinken Tudors are as guilty as hell

Just started listening to the audiobook version narrated by Derek Jacobi, seems pretty good.