Move to Murder: Who Killed Julia Wallace?

[moste]

No, It was off when he arrived back

That can’t be true. How would we know she hard turned it on

[etenguy]

Apparently, I read it somewhere , and
Rod if I get the gist has her making that statement in court, If she did I just think she may have wanted the jury to perceive what a wonderfully compassionate woman this is. My point is , If her hand was warm ,then she couldn’t have been dead for two hours as Macfall reported.This in turn blows the idea that Wallace killed his wife before he left for Menlove gardens, Since I believe Wallace to be guilty, he must have done it about 8 15 / 20 ish.

In an earlier post you suggested Wallace may have got a taxi back to give him time to kill Julia before the Johnstons met him in the street. and above state he needed to be back by 8.15 to 8.20ish. The following are the reasons I think that argue against that.

we know he was in a shop in Menlove gardens area around 8.00pm, so even he jumped into a taxi immediately on leaving the shop, it would have to have been a quick journey.

MacFall put the time of death before 8.00 and as early as 6.00. I know the method of estimating time of death was not entirely accurate, but it is unlikely to allow for a later time of death.

I have been re-reading the Johnstons' trial evidence and they state that the fire in the kitchen was almost out 'just a few embers' left, when they went into the house. This would suggest the fire had not been tended for some time before they entered - which would be the case if Julia had been killed an hour or two earlier, but unlikely if she had been killed after 8.00pm.

[moste]

I really dont have a problem with wallace having difficulty opening the doors, i do have a problem that as soon as the johnstons show up..bam no problem and hes in.

I’m with you on that one

[RodCrosby]

This would suggest the fire had not been tended for some time before they entered - which would be the case if Julia had been killed an hour or two earlier, but unlikely if she had been killed after 8.00pm.

Good point, eten. You've spotted a couple of things I've overlooked, so a hat-tip there...

[moste]

In an earlier post you suggested Wallace may have got a taxi back to give him time to kill Julia before the Johnstons met him in the street. and above state he needed to be back by 8.15 to 8.20ish. The following are the reasons I think that argue against that.

we know he was in a shop in Menlove gardens area around 8.00pm, so even he jumped into a taxi immediately on leaving the shop, it would have to have been a quick journey.

MacFall put the time of death before 8.00 and as early as 6.00. I know the method of estimating time of death was not entirely accurate, but it is unlikely to allow for a later time of death.

I have been re-reading the Johnstons' trial evidence and they state that the fire in the kitchen was almost out 'just a few embers' left, when they went into the house. This would suggest the fire had not been tended for some time before they entered - which would be the case if Julia had been killed an hour or two earlier, but unlikely if she had been killed after 8.00pm.

For me Macfalls evidence was shot all to hell when he neglected to take a rectal temperature.
However I concur on the kitchen fire embers situation. The only thing I can think is that Julia was involved in the parlour for a while .

[moste]

In an earlier post you suggested Wallace may have got a taxi back to give him time to kill Julia before the Johnstons met him in the street. and above state he needed to be back by 8.15 to 8.20ish. The following are the reasons I think that argue against that.

we know he was in a shop in Menlove gardens area around 8.00pm, so even he jumped into a taxi immediately on leaving the shop, it would have to have been a quick journey.

MacFall put the time of death before 8.00 and as early as 6.00. I know the method of estimating time of death was not entirely accurate, but it is unlikely to allow for a later time of death.

I have been re-reading the Johnstons' trial evidence and they state that the fire in the kitchen was almost out 'just a few embers' left, when they went into the house. This would suggest the fire had not been tended for some time before they entered - which would be the case if Julia had been killed an hour or two earlier, but unlikely if she had been killed after 8.00pm.

As to the Journey by cab. 4 to 5 miles at 30 miles an hour in those days with very few or no traffic signals . About 10 minutes.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think we've all had problems with locks in times of stress...

I haven’t.

[RodCrosby]

As to the Journey by cab. 4 to 5 miles at 30 miles an hour in those days with very few or no traffic signals . About 10 minutes.

Even if, for a moment, we suspend disbelief and entertain your fancy, for which there is absolutely NO evidence [It was accepted by the Police that Wallace boarded a Number 8 tram in Allerton Road] what is the likelihood of taxis touting for business on a major tram route, and Wallace managing to hail this mythical taxi?

Liverpool had one of the most intensive and extensive tram networks in the World at that time...

Almost 20 years previously, the network had been documented as travelling 13 million miles and carrying 144 million passengers in a single year...

Liverpool's population had grown by about 25%, and the network significantly extended, by 1931...

[Herlock Sholmes]

This was a plan (whoever we individually believe perpetrated it.) So Wallace, if he killed Julia on his return, must have planned to do just that. I don’t see how he could have ‘planned’ to have hailed a taxi to get back quickly enough? He might have walked around for ages before seeing one that was free.

[etenguy]

As to the Journey by cab. 4 to 5 miles at 30 miles an hour in those days with very few or no traffic signals . About 10 minutes.

If there were clear streets (I have no idea about the likely traffic conditions) ten minutes or so is possible - especially if it is a straight drive with few turnings needed. But let's go through the best timings for this to happen.

Before we start - I should say that after re-reading Wallace's trial evidence, I have to say he sounds guilty. There is something about his responses and the language he uses which gives me a gut instinct that he did it. But I can't for the life of me make the timings work.

so:

he leaves the shop at 8.00pm
catches a taxi by 8.01pm
journey time 10 minutes (but to a few streets away to cover himself) 8.11pm
pays and walks home (5 mins) - 8.16pm
prepares for the murder (gets naked and puts on the mackintosh - 2 mins) - 8.18
Calls Julia to the parlour and she comes (1 min) - 8.19
Kills Julia puts out mac and skirt fire and stuffs the mackintosh under her (2 mins) 8.21pm
stages the burglary upstairs and down (5 mins) - 8.26pm
cleans up (blood) and gets dressed without using sinks/bath (5 mins) - 8.31pm
Leaves house to dispose of towel and murder weapon (10 mins) 8.41pm
bumps into the Johnstons at 8.45pm

So, assuming you agree my timings, if everything goes his way, the timings are just possible assuming he did use a taxi.

But it means:

MacFall didn't recognise a recent corpse (which despite his poor practice is a little unlikely).
We need a reason for Julia to allow the fire in the kitchen to die out.
Wallace would have had to have been lucky in not getting too much blood on himself (face, hair and hands).
After carefully planning the murder, Wallace would need to take risks which seem out of sync with the previous careful planning (being identified by a taxi driver, being seen disposing of the weapon (which had to be fairly close if the timings are to work).
Had to be very lucky that the Johnstons left at 8.45 (just the right time if he used a tram back).

I think on balance, if Wallace was the killer, he is more likely to have killed Julia before he left for the menlove area so that this unnecessary risks are avoided.

[moste]

In an earlier post you suggested Wallace may have got a taxi back to give him time to kill Julia before the Johnstons met him in the street. and above state he needed to be back by 8.15 to 8.20ish. The following are the reasons I think that argue against that.

we know he was in a shop in Menlove gardens area around 8.00pm, so even he jumped into a taxi immediately on leaving the shop, it would have to have been a quick journey.

MacFall put the time of death before 8.00 and as early as 6.00. I know the method of estimating time of death was not entirely accurate, but it is unlikely to allow for a later time of death.




I have been re-reading the Johnstons' trial evidence and they state that the fire in the kitchen was almost out 'just a few embers' left, when they went into the house. This would suggest the fire had not been tended for some time before they entered - which would be the case if Julia had been killed an hour or two earlier, but unlikely if she had been killed after 8.00pm.

If there were clear streets (I have no idea about the likely traffic conditions) ten minutes or so is possible - especially if it is a straight drive with few turnings needed. But let's go through the best timings for this to happen.

Before we start - I should say that after re-reading Wallace's trial evidence, I have to say he sounds guilty. There is something about his responses and the language he uses which gives me a gut instinct that he did it. But I can't for the life of me make the timings work.

so:

he leaves the shop at 8.00pm
catches a taxi by 8.01pm
journey time 10 minutes (but to a few streets away to cover himself) 8.11pm
pays and walks home (5 mins) - 8.16pm
prepares for the murder (gets naked and puts on the mackintosh - 2 mins) - 8.18
Calls Julia to the parlour and she comes (1 min) - 8.19
Kills Julia puts out mac and skirt fire and stuffs the mackintosh under her (2 mins) 8.21pm
stages the burglary upstairs and down (5 mins) - 8.26pm
cleans up (blood) and gets dressed without using sinks/bath (5 mins) - 8.31pm
Leaves house to dispose of towel and murder weapon (10 mins) 8.41pm
bumps into the Johnstons at 8.45pm

So, assuming you agree my timings, if everything goes his way, the timings are just possible assuming he did use a taxi.

But it means:

MacFall didn't recognise a recent corpse (which despite his poor practice is a little unlikely).
We need a reason for Julia to allow the fire in the kitchen to die out.
Wallace would have had to have been lucky in not getting too much blood on himself (face, hair and hands).
After carefully planning the murder, Wallace would need to take risks which seem out of sync with the previous careful planning (being identified by a taxi driver, being seen disposing of the weapon (which had to be fairly close if the timings are to work).
Had to be very lucky that the Johnstons left at 8.45 (just the right time if he used a tram back).

I think on balance, if Wallace was the killer, he is more likely to have killed Julia before he left for the menlove area so that this unnecessary risks are avoided.

Good post. Times work for me, I do acknowledge your belief in murder before he left ,the taxi is a drawback, hailing one is abserd , prebooking, too risky ,I’ll give it more thought.incidently Macfall wasn’t at the scene until 10 ish I believe.
And meeting the Johnston’s as and when it did worked ok for Wallace ,but it would have been no big deal to have to knock on their door , or if they had already gone out ,knocked on the people on the other side with the question,”Have you heard or seen anything suspicious ,I can’t seem to get into my house!”

[harry]

Was it logical to take a visitor into a cold room,when there was a warm room,the kitchen,with a fire already lit.What was gained?Wallace doesn't give evidence of any anticipated visitors,so a social visit seems out of the question.
If a visitor introduced himself as Qualtrough,then would not Julia expect Wallace to return home early.So warming another room,which would take time,would seem a waste when the kitchen was adequate to transact busines.And any other kind of thief knocking on the door to gain entrance,is so far fetched,it's not worth thinking of.
Kind of odd too,that Julia would need a covering over the shoulders when answering the door,but sought no protection when going out into the open air when Wallace departed.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Was it logical to take a visitor into a cold room,when there was a warm room,the kitchen,with a fire already lit.What was gained?Wallace doesn't give evidence of any anticipated visitors,so a social visit seems out of the question.
If a visitor introduced himself as Qualtrough,then would not Julia expect Wallace to return home early.So warming another room,which would take time,would seem a waste when the kitchen was adequate to transact busines.And any other kind of thief knocking on the door to gain entrance,is so far fetched,it's not worth thinking of.
Kind of odd too,that Julia would need a covering over the shoulders when answering the door,but sought no protection when going out into the open air when Wallace departed.

Good point Harry.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Three objections to Wallace having killed Julia on his return from MGE:

1. Wallace would have taken a big risk of being spotted returning early by a neighbour. All it would have taken was someone passing him in the street or someone looking out of a window.

2. There is far more chance of a taxi driver remembering a passenger than a tram conductor (who might have had 100’s of passengers during his shift.) All it would have taken was the taxi driver to have thought “I picked up a man near Menlove Gardens that night and dropped him near to Wolverton Street.”

3. It’s often pointed out as counting against Wallace’s guilt that the police never found the murder weapon despite searching Wallace’s route. If Wallace had killed Julia on his return to Wolverton Street it would have been near impossible for him to have hidden the weapon so successfully that the police didn’t find it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If Parry, or Parry and accomplice or accomplice alone had watched to see William leave they would have known that he’d left by the backdoor so what would have convinced him that Wallace was certain to have returned via the front door - causing him to bolt the front door rather than the back?

We know that Wallace returned by the backdoor at night times but how long would they have had to have watched him to be certain of this? Even if they’d seen him return by the front door on a previous occasion it still wouldnt mean for certain that it would have been the same on that night.