Move to Murder: Who Killed Julia Wallace?

[RodCrosby]

20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing.

In 1931 most people relied on word of mouth, from trusted sources, like your club captain, who himself lived not far from Menlove Gardens.

And Wallace did in fact arrive, on time, where MGE "ought to be." The only problem was it didn't exist. Amusingly, the last person who suggested it might exist was a woman coming out of a house on Menlove Gardens North !

Thought experiment.

Suppose, instead of Wallace, Beattie had received a message requesting his presence at 25 Menlove Gardens East...
Or Caird
Or Crewe
Or tram-conductors Angus, Thompson or Phillips?

Would they have checked a directory?

Of course not! Because they all already "knew" where Menlove Gardens East was...

So to apply any different standard to Wallace is unreasonable.

[WallaceWackedHer]

20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing.

In 1931 most people relied on word of mouth, from trusted sources, like your club captain, who himself lived not far from Menlove Gardens.

And Wallace did in fact arrive, on time, where MGE "ought to be." The only problem was it didn't exist. Amusingly, the last person who suggested it might exist was a woman coming out of a house on Menlove Gardens North !

Thought experiment.

Suppose, instead of Wallace, Beattie had received a message requesting his presence at 25 Menlove Gardens East...
Or Caird
Or Crewe
Or tram-conductors Angus, Thompson or Phillips?

Would they have checked a directory?

Of course not! Because they all already "knew" where Menlove Gardens East was...

So to apply any different standard to Wallace is unreasonable.

I follow your reasoning, though I would argue that those people would have checked a directory if they stood to gain a handsome commission, or if they were very serious about their career.

However, if Wallace had checked a directory and STILL gone to Menlove I wouldn't have blamed him at all... I mean he's relying on Beattie's interpretation of the address, if no East existed he could have tried West (which we know he did) and Avenue. It would make sense still.

If you're right it doesn't make sense he'd check, the dilemna is still that his behavior is what he would do both if innocent OR guilty, so can't be used as hard evidence either way. I only know you from this thread and I only just signed up so I don't know if you're into true crime in general or just this case in particular - but someone going out of their way to be noticed and remembered is a very common hallmark of killers attempting to establish an alibi (I've seen so many cases that have been solved where the killer acted similar to Wallace, I watch crime docs like 24 7 lol)... But yes he would have done the same if he'd been innocent and just didn't check in advance.

[RodCrosby]

i'm not heavily into true crime, but have read enough on most of the major cases. Yes, superficially, it looks like alibi-mongering. But when you look a little deeper that doesn't hold water.

Not least because the most important time for an alibi was immediately after the killing. But Wallace never drew attention to himself until he was out of his own district, about 20 minutes after he had left the house. He had no reason to draw attention to himself at the beginning because - as an innocent man - he was entirely familiar with his surroundings.

And the whole notion of the alibi hinges on milkboy Alan Close. Without Close, Wallace would have no alibi, just a very odd story about a man who didn't exist in a street that didn't exist...

[moste]

.Quote:.. "But yes he would have done the same if he'd been innocent and just didn't check in advance. "
If innocent, I agree, he would have gone anyway , possibly a lucrative deal in the offing, but having discovered from locals soon after arriving in the area that MGE was a phantom, then by all means check MGW number 25. And maybe Menlove Ave. But traipsing down Green Ave to check in with Crewe, having a chat with local Bobby and pressing on to catch the newsagents before that closed,
I for one am not buying it!

[WallaceWackedHer]

i'm not heavily into true crime, but have read enough on most of the major cases. Yes, superficially, it looks like alibi-mongering. But when you look a little deeper that doesn't hold water.

Not least because the most important time for an alibi was immediately after the killing. But Wallace never drew attention to himself until he was out of his own district, about 20 minutes after he had left the house. He had no reason to draw attention to himself at the beginning because - as an innocent man - he was entirely familiar with his surroundings.

And the whole notion of the alibi hinges on milkboy Alan Close. Without Close, Wallace would have no alibi, just a very odd story about a man who didn't exist in a street that didn't exist...

Yes the milk boy is critical. If Wallace did it, and did it alone, he waited for the milk boy to arrive and see Julia shortly before committing the crime. Apparently, once the attack began it could have been over within 30 seconds.

The killing was fairly clean, evidently, and we can discern that she was not expecting the blow, so wouldn't have put up any fight. In those days there wasn't really forensics so you only had to be VISUALLY free from blood.

If Wallace DID do it then I'd say we also can't assume that the staged robbery happened after the killing. He could easily have pocketed the notes from the insurance box BEFORE the milk boy even saw Julia, and threw stuff in her bedroom around once he got back (I actually find it peculiar he went in alone despite thinking there was someone in the house or that he'd been burgled - and that he didn't call his wife's name as soon as he entered the house).

I'm also unsure, if Wallace did it, that he definitely acted alone. Marsden's alibi for the night of the murder was "flu". Did anyone even check if he was sick the day before and after, or did he magically just get ill on the day of the crime and recover miraculously the next day? I don't think he was questioned enough.

I believe Lily Hall that she saw that man matching Marsden's description. Believe her as in, there's some chance she got it wrong, but that she really believed what she saw. I doubt someone could confuse a towering and distinctive looking man like Wallace for anyone else.

The only thing strongly suggesting if Wallace did it he acted alone, is the fact that the call came through before Wallace arrived. If it had came while he was there, his alibi is watertight, and he could've still had corroborators by saying like "sorry, I'm too engrossed in this match, can you please write down the message for me?" Then again Beattie was playing chess himself.

[WallaceWackedHer]

.Quote:.. "But yes he would have done the same if he'd been innocent and just didn't check in advance. "
If innocent, I agree, he would have gone anyway , possibly a lucrative deal in the offing, but having discovered from locals soon after arriving in the area that MGE was a phantom, then by all means check MGW number 25. And maybe Menlove Ave. But traipsing down Green Ave to check in with Crewe, having a chat with local Bobby and pressing on to catch the newsagents before that closed,
I for one am not buying it!

I was under the impression a few people told him it might exist? As for Crewe there's no evidence he went - but it wouldn't have weakened his case if he did go and Crewe DID answer.

It's within the realm of possibility that he just thought it was an obscure location (considering residents of west and north implied it may be real). But I probably would've checked a directory sooner IMO. Certainly before stopping by Crewe's pad. Lol.

I'm actually surprised people even thought there could be an east. North and south join in a triangle point. It's obv there wouldn't be. Then again if someone says an address I guess the natural inclination is to assume it MUST exist and try to rationally work out where it might be if it was real.

[Herlock Sholmes]

i'm not heavily into true crime, but have read enough on most of the major cases. Yes, superficially, it looks like alibi-mongering. But when you look a little deeper that doesn't hold water.

Not least because the most important time for an alibi was immediately after the killing. But Wallace never drew attention to himself until he was out of his own district, about 20 minutes after he had left the house. He had no reason to draw attention to himself at the beginning because - as an innocent man - he was entirely familiar with his surroundings.

And the whole notion of the alibi hinges on milkboy Alan Close. Without Close, Wallace would have no alibi, just a very odd story about a man who didn't exist in a street that didn't exist...

This doesn’t point to an innocent Wallace though. If he’d started drawing attention to himself in the first part of his journey people would have asked why he was acting ‘lost’ when he was still so close to home? At the first point that he began ‘asking’ it was obvious that he hadn’t just materialised at that point and so he was alibi’s by the travelling time to get to where he was.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I was under the impression a few people told him it might exist? As for Crewe there's no evidence he went - but it wouldn't have weakened his case if he did go and Crewe DID answer.

It's within the realm of possibility that he just thought it was an obscure location (considering residents of west and north implied it may be real). But I probably would've checked a directory sooner IMO. Certainly before stopping by Crewe's pad. Lol.

I'm actually surprised people even thought there could be an east. North and south join in a triangle point. It's obv there wouldn't be. Then again if someone says an address I guess the natural inclination is to assume it MUST exist and try to rationally work out where it might be if it was real.

Hi WWH,

The assumption was made that Wallace would have been safe to go to an area where it was likely that MGE would be as no one at the club actually knew of the exact location. It would have been a reasonable assumption to have made but it’s not easy to understand why Wallace didn’t make the minimal effort required to consult a directory or even to have phoned Crewe just to be sure. After all Wallace might have found it a little strange that Qualtrough had 1. Contacted him directly rather than The Pru. 2. Contacted him at a chess club where his attendance wouldn’t exactly have been common knowledge. and 3. That Qualtrough had strangely asked for Wallace’s home address before asking for him to go to his house. These facts might have made Wallace suspicious and more inclined to be sure. Finally we have to consider the fact that Wallace only allowed himself 10 minutes after he alighted from his final tram to locate an unknown address in an area of which he was allegedly unfamiliar. Not impossible of course but maybe a little tight?

[RodCrosby]

This doesn’t point to an innocent Wallace though. If he’d started drawing attention to himself in the first part of his journey people would have asked why he was acting ‘lost’ when he was still so close to home? At the first point that he began ‘asking’ it was obvious that he hadn’t just materialised at that point and so he was alibi’s by the travelling time to get to where he was.

Still up to your heads-I-win, tails-Wallace-loses tricks?

Yawn...

He didn't have to act 'lost'.
He could have asked someone the time...
He could have engaged a fellow-passenger in a conversation about the weather...
He could have asked a clippie "I say. I've been told to change at Penny Lane for Menlove Gardens. Is that correct?"...

Any number of innocuous things, to draw attention to himself. He didn't, because he didn't need to, because he was innocent.

[moste]

Still up to your heads-I-win, tails-Wallace-loses tricks?

Yawn...

He didn't have to act 'lost'.
He could have asked someone the time...
He could have engaged a fellow-passenger in a conversation about the weather...
He could have asked a clippie "I say. I've been told to change at Penny Lane for Menlove Gardens. Is that correct?"...

Any number of innocuous things, to draw attention to himself. He didn't, because he didn't need to, because he was innocent.

You really believe Wallace would need to do anything more to convince detectives that his efforts to secure numerous alibi's were 'Over the top?
Incidentally , I checked Google Earth , your quite right 25 Menlove Ave. is about 500 yards further along from Green,about a six minute walk. Now ,under those very same circumstances, and this goes for everyone on this thread, would YOU have checked that address, in all honesty?

[WallaceWackedHer]

This doesn’t point to an innocent Wallace though. If he’d started drawing attention to himself in the first part of his journey people would have asked why he was acting ‘lost’ when he was still so close to home? At the first point that he began ‘asking’ it was obvious that he hadn’t just materialised at that point and so he was alibi’s by the travelling time to get to where he was.

This is true, although he still could have said like "good evening" if he saw someone he knew.

And I would actually point out that he'd be better off NOT getting an immediate alibi IF he was able to get to the tram stop faster than he should have been able to. Then he can fudge the time he left his home to give himself more time.

Ailing as he was, only total cripples are unable to move their ass when it's an emergency. Imagine a house fire, even grandma with arthritis is gonna be moving quickly lol.

I'm surprised nobody saw him leave home or see him on the journey to the tram.

A friend of mine suggested he may have had a ride. I also entertain that he had collaborators (especially given Lily Hall's sighting), but if he did, my friend also wondered why he'd have the call come before he'd got to the club, as he could've got the other guy to do it.

One possible explanation is that the killer wanted an alibi for the night of the call (did Marsden have one?) and then do the killing. If this is true - remember someone claimed to have heard a large thud around 8ish? Maybe nothing but still... If that is true though, then perhaps had the pathologist had got the time of death closer by using rectal temperature Wallace would've been totally exonerated and Marsden considered an unlikely suspect after proving he couldn't have called.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Still up to your heads-I-win, tails-Wallace-loses tricks?

Yawn...

He didn't have to act 'lost'.
He could have asked someone the time...
He could have engaged a fellow-passenger in a conversation about the weather...
He could have asked a clippie "I say. I've been told to change at Penny Lane for Menlove Gardens. Is that correct?"...

Any number of innocuous things, to draw attention to himself. He didn't, because he didn't need to, because he was innocent.

This from a man who has spent the last year shamelessly twisting every aspect of the case to exonerate St William and to shoehorn your theory into place.

My point stands. As any honest observer can see.

[RodCrosby]

You really believe Wallace would need to do anything more to convince detectives that his efforts to secure numerous alibi's were 'Over the top?
Incidentally , I checked Google Earth , your quite right 25 Menlove Ave. is about 500 yards further along from Green,about a six minute walk. Now ,under those very same circumstances, and this goes for everyone on this thread, would YOU have checked that address, in all honesty?

You don't even see that you're another heads-I-win, tails-Wallace-loses merchant.

You criticise Wallace for making too many enquiries.
Then you criticise him for not making yet another...

"I checked Google Earth, your'e quite right...."
You mean to say you DID NOT check the map before you started this conversation?
How do you account for this deeply SUSPICIOUS behaviour?

[I should have been a lawyer...]

[WallaceWackedHer]

Hi WWH,

The assumption was made that Wallace would have been safe to go to an area where it was likely that MGE would be as no one at the club actually knew of the exact location. It would have been a reasonable assumption to have made but it’s not easy to understand why Wallace didn’t make the minimal effort required to consult a directory or even to have phoned Crewe just to be sure. After all Wallace might have found it a little strange that Qualtrough had 1. Contacted him directly rather than The Pru. 2. Contacted him at a chess club where his attendance wouldn’t exactly have been common knowledge. and 3. That Qualtrough had strangely asked for Wallace’s home address before asking for him to go to his house. These facts might have made Wallace suspicious and more inclined to be sure. Finally we have to consider the fact that Wallace only allowed himself 10 minutes after he alighted from his final tram to locate an unknown address in an area of which he was allegedly unfamiliar. Not impossible of course but maybe a little tight?

Maybe if the milk boy had arrived at the time he was meant to, he would've had more time at Menlove. In fact, the fact the time he allowed himself was so tight makes me think Wallace (if guilty) EXPECTED the milk boy to arrive earlier and set it up so he'd have more time in Menlove. And yes those things are very odd.

I still feel west works better. He doesn't need 100 witnesses, just the tram conductor at the start, then 25 MGW, then 25 MGA. That's enough for an alibi IMO and doesn't look like he's trying TOO hard to be seen. Even a thief could have known with more certainty how much time he/they had to act given a real address (which, if they gave to Beattie, they would've assumed Wallace had received when he went to MGE if it was a mistake on Beattie's part).

That said I COMPLETELY dispute the sneak thief idea presented in OP's book!!! I think it can be PROVEN that TWO people would be needed to pull that off if it happened (a bit more plausible with two) - OR - that Julia was killed before the burglary. And if the latter is true it was premeditated and they'd have brought their own weapon... Why did Wallace assume something inside the home had been used? Why did he lie about ever seeing the iron bar (unless innocent but felt it so incriminating he lied). Supposedly the burglars panicked and had to rush out of the home early - nonsensical then that the lights and stove were turned out. That's a sign the intruder did not panic, so why weren't more things taken? The whole scene screams of staged robbery, which tends to point to Wallace but not necessarily if someone else just had it in for Julia and wanted her dead.

If anyone feels west and east sound too dissimilar for Beattie to mix that up, then you must consider why Wallace did when he was given the message!

[cobalt]

The killing was fairly clean, evidently, and we can discern that she was not expecting the blow, so wouldn't have put up any fight. In those days there wasn't really forensics so you only had to be VISUALLY free from blood.

Fairly clean? What does fairly mean in the context of eleven wounds to the head? Spray against the wall?

No forensics in these days? Do some homework. Read up on Glaister, the famous Scottish forensic scientist, who was solving cases like this in Aberdeen back at the same time.