Murder. Mystery and My Family

[Graham]

Hi Miss Marple,

you're correct of course in suggesting that 'toffs' who could afford the best briefs had a better chance of getting away with murder than 'ordinary' people such as Edith Thompson. But not always, as a quick study of 20th century UK capital cases which resulted in death sentences will reveal.

On the other hand, sometimes it worked the opposite way: another of my 'favourite' cases is that of Tony Mancini of one of the Brighton Trunk Murders fame (there were two). Mancini was a thug and sometime gangster without two pennies to rub together, but he was incredibly lucky that the State appointed the services of Norman Birkett, ultimately one of the greatest advocates in English legal history. Birkett's defence of Mancini was little short of brilliant, and Mancini was acquitted, only years later to confess to the crime.

It was the hangman John Ellis who committed suicide, supposedly as a result of Edith Thompson's execution. It was rumoured that she was actually pregnant at the time.

Graham

[Robert]

By my calculations, Edith would have been entering her fourth month of pregnancy when executed (assuming she was pregnant, and assuming she hadn't been 'got at' while in custody). Is it possible for a woman to be three months pregnant and not suspect it? With execution looming for both her and her child, she would hardly have kept quiet about it.

[Graham]

Plus of course the Law did not permit the execution of a pregnant woman, so you'd have thought that if she was pregnant and knew it, she'd have used that to get herself off the hook.

Graham

[Robert]

You would have thought so, Graham.

[Joshua Rogan]

Is it possible for a woman to be three months pregnant and not suspect it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-43257429/moment-surprise-baby-arrives-during-999-call

[Robert]

Thank you Joshua. I don't understand how a woman can have a baby rattling round inside her and not know it, but as Mr Spock says, it simply exists.

[Pcdunn]

Hi AS,

I’ve just checked and the 4 episodes screened so far are available to watch on YouTube. This is the first one:

[url]https://youtu.be/p6gN93hJxVE

YouTube now has a notice at this link that the account has been "deactivated due to multiple third-party notifications of copyright infringement", so I guess we Americans will need to see if they make a version for us.

It is an interesting concept, if you can find people willing to admit their ancestors were criminals. Though I guess Mr. Mudgett doesn't have a problem with that.

[caz]

It is an interesting concept, if you can find people willing to admit their ancestors were criminals. Though I guess Mr. Mudgett doesn't have a problem with that.

Or willing to accuse them outright, without a shred of evidence. A couple of other ripper 'suspects' in that predicament spring to mind, Pat.

The theme of Murder, Mystery & My Family, now sadly at an end unless they do another series, overwhelmingly concerned the relatives of the convicted person hoping new evidence could be found for their innocence, or at least to make the original verdict unsafe.

Love,

Caz
X

[Herlock Sholmes]

YouTube now has a notice at this link that the account has been "deactivated due to multiple third-party notifications of copyright infringement", so I guess we Americans will need to see if they make a version for us.

It is an interesting concept, if you can find people willing to admit their ancestors were criminals. Though I guess Mr. Mudgett doesn't have a problem with that.

I wonder why Pat? $$$

[Graham]

It is an interesting concept, if you can find people willing to admit their ancestors were criminals.

Hi Pat,

I once shared an office with a fellow who was heavily into genealogy, in the days before computers and the internet. He went to great lengths to delve into the history of, I believe, his father's family. However, it all came to a sudden end when one day, to his huge surprise and embarrassment, he discovered that an ancestor of his had been hanged for murder some time during the 19th century. He couldn't handle this! Had it been someone in my family, I'd have been rivetted!

Graham

[RodCrosby]

It has been said if you delve long enough into your genealogy you will definitely find "illegitimacy, criminality or insanity." Just look at the Royal Family, for instance...

Or as the Scouser said: "Dat's rite, dah... All mine are mad, thieving bastards..." [I'm a Scouser so am entitled to make such jokes!]

[Busy Beaver]

Some of the points in the cases of this programme can be applied to the Ripper. Particularly with times of death and blood splattering. Seems like nothing changes in the world of good old murder even after 130 years.

[Mayerling]

Hi Pat,

I once shared an office with a fellow who was heavily into genealogy, in the days before computers and the internet. He went to great lengths to delve into the history of, I believe, his father's family. However, it all came to a sudden end when one day, to his huge surprise and embarrassment, he discovered that an ancestor of his had been hanged for murder some time during the 19th century. He couldn't handle this! Had it been someone in my family, I'd have been rivetted!

Graham

Hi Graham,

When I was seriously researching up to the year 2008 at the 42nd Street Library, I used to delve into a four volume series from about 1900 of a magazine called "Famous Crimes" that was published in Great Britain. The paper was like onion skin, and one had to be very careful turning pages because they tore so easily. It was obvious that the reason the magazine was so cheap when published was the quality of the paper made it so.

Anyway, the editors received mail from readers, and occasionally they got letters from descendants of executed felons. When they replied they did not give the original correspondence nor the name of the individual who wrote. On one occasion I noted the limits the magazine would go to on what they felt they could discuss. They had no problem with the Whitechapel Murders or Charlie Peace, but one correspondent asked if they were going to discuss an 1811 case. They were scandalized by the request and said they'd never print anything about such a filthy case.

Without naming it they were referring to the Hepburn and White Affair (I think it was called). An army Ensign and a drummer boy apparently had sodomy together, were caught, and executed. Interesting that the subject of murder (even of children - the series had a discussion of the 1876 Blackburn Child murderer William Fish) was included but not sodomy.

Jeff

[AmericanSherlock]

Hi Graham,

When I was seriously researching up to the year 2008 at the 42nd Street Library, I used to delve into a four volume series from about 1900 of a magazine called "Famous Crimes" that was published in Great Britain. The paper was like onion skin, and one had to be very careful turning pages because they tore so easily. It was obvious that the reason the magazine was so cheap when published was the quality of the paper made it so.

Anyway, the editors received mail from readers, and occasionally they got letters from descendants of executed felons. When they replied they did not give the original correspondence nor the name of the individual who wrote. On one occasion I noted the limits the magazine would go to on what they felt they could discuss. They had no problem with the Whitechapel Murders or Charlie Peace, but one correspondent asked if they were going to discuss an 1811 case. They were scandalized by the request and said they'd never print anything about such a filthy case.

Without naming it they were referring to the Hepburn and White Affair (I think it was called). An army Ensign and a drummer boy apparently had sodomy together, were caught, and executed. Interesting that the subject of murder (even of children - the series had a discussion of the 1876 Blackburn Child murderer William Fish) was included but not sodomy.

Jeff

Doubt the sodomy would be punishable so harshly if it was a man buggering his gal up the arse

In all seriousness, the criminalization of homosexual activity is a sad part of many societies still today. It is surprising to learn of a capital punishment for such behavior even 200 years ago in a 1st world country. Were there any extra circumstances in that case? Not that it would come close to justifying it, but it's also hard to believe that was the blanket law back then.

[Mayerling]

Doubt the sodomy would be punishable so harshly if it was a man buggering his gal up the arse

In all seriousness, the criminalization of homosexual activity is a sad part of many societies still today. It is surprising to learn of a capital punishment for such behavior even 200 years ago in a 1st world country. Were there any extra circumstances in that case? Not that it would come close to justifying it, but it's also hard to believe that was the blanket law back then.

I know nothing about the case except for the "hushed up" cause of the case and it's double execution. "Famous Crimes" was published from 1900 to 1904 which is within a decade of Oscar Wilde's trials, and he died in 1900 too. In 1903 one of Britain's most popular generals, Hector MacFarlane ("Fighting Mac"), who led the last charge at Omdurman in 1898 and had been appointed Military Governor of the colony (then) of Ceylon (now Sri Lanka), had resigned when he returned to London, and subsequently shot himself in Paris. Officially it was "overwork", but word soon spread of rumors about MacFarlane and local Ceylonese boys. And it wasn't only Britain. In 1902 the head of the Krupp Industrial empire in Germany killed himself (I believe in Capri, then notorious for male sodomy relationships) when about to be exposed.

If I find out more about the 1811 affair, I will post it here.

Jeff