JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[caz]

"Delusional nonsense. Childish blather. Proven nonsense. I’m tired of listening to babyish crap.

Kennedy was hit by 2 shots from behind’

100% proven. Even Cyril bloody Wecht isn’t that much of a fool to deny it"

"Utter bilge even by conspiracist fantasists standards. You even surprised me by this bottom of the barrel scraping. This was taken after the head shot. No doubt at all. You can even see spray.

Anyone that says that there was a massive, gaping head wound to the back of Kennedy’s head is either blind, a fantasist or a liar. Take your pick."

"End of argument. Anyone who mentions ‘fake’ isn’t worth listening to.

100000% proof. Shot from behind. Even bloody Cyril Wecht accepts it but it’s not barking mad enough for some."
"
There’s a good chap."

Is this the standard of debate to which this forum has descended? The deceptive, dishonest, half truth about Wecht perpetrated by Bugliosi being constantly and repeatedly presented as a fact. Lies and deceit accompanied by invective diatribes substituting for factual argument? A philosophy and policy that all who disagree must be silenced that would turn Hitler positively green with envy. And always the hyperbole and superlatives used in the expression of intransigent opinions and conjectures.

Unworthy, George.

You've done your fair share of lowering the standards of debate, but this is a new low, implying that Herlock would really silence any poster [even if he could] merely for disagreeing with his interpretations of the evidence, and then comparing him - unfavourably - to Hitler in that regard. If you don't like the emoji being available to all on these boards, I suggest you take it up with Admin.

How about this one?

Am I promoting a philosophy and policy of knocking posters into next Wednesday when we don't care much for their tone?

How about this one?

You're not actually under arrest, George, before you take things too literally again.

[FrankO]

Hi Frank,

I'm not entirely clear on your view. Can you elaborate please?

Best regards, George

Hi George,

Yes, I can. Having watched the Josiah Thompson video – the one you mentioned in your post #1174 – I was tempted to believe what he says in it with regards to the 2 directions of spray and debris: one to the left & behind and the other forward and over the front hood of the limousine. The first corresponding to a shot from the grassy knoll and the second to a shot from behind.

So, I started to dig into information regarding the sprays and first found out that Hargis actually never stated that the spray hit him with such force that he thought he was shot. Hargis said he felt something had hit him, concrete or something, but he thought at first he might have been hit, but the “with such a force, etc.” was Thompson’s interpretation. What I further found was that Hargis said that the side of the head he couldn’t see, i.e. the right side, exploded, that it splashed up, and that, as it came down, he rode through all that brain matter and all that. It came up and down, all over his uniform.

Then, watching the Zapruder and Muchmore film again, it became clear to me that, indeed, a sort of cloud came from the president’s head, which seems to be gently blown in a direction towards the back of the car and then came down. In several interviews he used words to that effect.

Then, I searched to see if I could find information about any wind and its force and direction on that fateful day. I found one source (James Altgens) that stated there had been blowing a wind from the north and another stating it came straight at the limousine at 15 to 20 miles per hour. Seeing that Altgens was actually in Dealey Plaza at the time, I’m going more with him rather than the other. A a north wind would, indeed, blow from the north side of Elm Street (where Zapruder was) to the south side (where Moorman was) and would be perfectly in line with debris blowing where it ended up.

Afterwards, I also searched for information about the piece of skull Harper had found and found out that it hadn’t been found behind or to the left of the position of the limousine at the moment of the fatal shot, but ahead of it. In fact, it was found about one third between where the limousine was and the overpass. Like I said before, that location would be much more in line with a shot from behind than with one from the grassy knoll.

And then, of course, in the Zapruder film we see an explosion of the top right part of the president’s head, while the back part of it remains intact. This explosion would have been an exit wound, dismissing a hit from the grassy knoll.

Combining all of this, makes my view, for now, that there were 3 shots from behind. The first one was taken when the limousine passed under a traffic light right in front of the TSBD. The shot hit the mast arm or something of the traffic light, went on and ricocheted close to the manhole just on the south side of Elm Street and then went on to ricochet on a concrete curb and cause a wound on James Tague’s face. Then, the second bullet hit both Kennedy and Connally at frame 223/224 and then the last bullet hit the president in the back of the head, making it explode near to right temple, blasting blood and debris in almost all directions. I also believe the position the 3 bullet shells were found in on the 6^th floor of the TSBD are in line with shots at around frame 160, 223/224 and 313. I remember seeing a re-enactment of this several years ago, but can’t remember (or find) where.

All the best,
Frank

[Aethelwulf]

Is this the standard of debate to which this forum has descended? The deceptive, dishonest, half truth about Wecht perpetrated by Bugliosi being constantly and repeatedly presented as a fact. Lies and deceit accompanied by invective diatribes substituting for factual argument? A philosophy and policy that all who disagree must be silenced that would turn Hitler positively green with envy. And always the hyperbole and superlatives used in the expression of intransigent opinions and conjectures.

Must have missed this two faced corker from GB first time around. I've highlighted the key words. Now who has been the one sharing links to the ZP being faked and medical evidence being faked? Basically spreading misinformation wherever he goes? He even has the cheek to claim to be standard bearer of 'factual argument'!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Unworthy, George.

You've done your fair share of lowering the standards of debate, but this is a new low, implying that Herlock would really silence any poster [even if he could] merely for disagreeing with his interpretations of the evidence, and then comparing him - unfavourably - to Hitler in that regard. If you don't like the emoji being available to all on these boards, I suggest you take it up with Admin.

How about this one?

Am I promoting a philosophy and policy of knocking posters into next Wednesday when we don't care much for their tone?

How about this one?

You're not actually under arrest, George, before you take things too literally again.

You’re obviously unaware of the ‘rules’ created by George and Fishy. They are allowed to insult and mock….I’m not. I wish that they’d told me this earlier in the thread.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’m glad that 2 other posters have noticed this. I applaud the honesty.

[Aethelwulf]

Hi George,

Yes, I can. Having watched the Josiah Thompson video – the one you mentioned in your post #1174 – I was tempted to believe what he says in it with regards to the 2 directions of spray and debris: one to the left & behind and the other forward and over the front hood of the limousine. The first corresponding to a shot from the grassy knoll and the second to a shot from behind.

So, I started to dig into information regarding the sprays and first found out that Hargis actually never stated that the spray hit him with such force that he thought he was shot. Hargis said he felt something had hit him, concrete or something, but he thought at first he might have been hit, but the “with such a force, etc.” was Thompson’s interpretation. What I further found was that Hargis said that the side of the head he couldn’t see, i.e. the right side, exploded, that it splashed up, and that, as it came down, he rode through all that brain matter and all that. It came up and down, all over his uniform.

Then, watching the Zapruder and Muchmore film again, it became clear to me that, indeed, a sort of cloud came from the president’s head, which seems to be gently blown in a direction towards the back of the car and then came down. In several interviews he used words to that effect.

Then, I searched to see if I could find information about any wind and its force and direction on that fateful day. I found one source (James Altgens) that stated there had been blowing a wind from the north and another stating it came straight at the limousine at 15 to 20 miles per hour. Seeing that Altgens was actually in Dealey Plaza at the time, I’m going more with him rather than the other. A a north wind would, indeed, blow from the north side of Elm Street (where Zapruder was) to the south side (where Moorman was) and would be perfectly in line with debris blowing where it ended up.

Afterwards, I also searched for information about the piece of skull Harper had found and found out that it hadn’t been found behind or to the left of the position of the limousine at the moment of the fatal shot, but ahead of it. In fact, it was found about one third between where the limousine was and the overpass. Like I said before, that location would be much more in line with a shot from behind than with one from the grassy knoll.

And then, of course, in the Zapruder film we see an explosion of the top right part of the president’s head, while the back part of it remains intact.

Combining all of this, makes my view, for now, that there were 3 shots from behind. The first one was taken when the limousine passed under a traffic light right in front of the TSBD. The shot hit the mast arm or something of the traffic light, went on and ricocheted close to the manhole just on the south side of Elm Street and then went on to ricochet on a concrete curb and cause a wound on James Tague’s face. Then, the second bullet hit both Kennedy and Connally at frame 223/224 and then the last bullet hit the president in the back of the head, making it explode near to right temple, blasting blood and debris in all directions. I also believe the position the 3 bullet shells were found in on the 6^th floor of the TSBD are in line with shots at around frame 160, 223/224 and 313. I remember seeing a re-enactment of this several years ago, but can’t remember (or find) where.

All the best,
Frank

Nice to read logical and well thought out post on this. Note that in the Haag interview (ballistic experts that created the 3D laser scan model), they also came to the conclusion that first shot (miss) was made as JFK passed on directly in front on the TSBD.

[FrankO]

Nice to read logical and well thought out post on this. Note that in the Haag interview (ballistic experts that created the 3D laser scan model), they also came to the conclusion that first shot (miss) was made as JFK passed on directly in front on the TSBD.

Thanks, Aethelwulf, and thanks for pointing me to Haag and his work.

Best,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

Careful, HS, or you'll be accused of 'nit picking'.

Not the easiest job in boxing gloves, I should imagine, or while carrying an unfeasibly long ham and cheese baguette, even by American standards. But I'd only be guessing. Nitty Nora used a comb dipped in Dettol when I was a girl.

Would it be another guess that a boxing glove and a bullet can pack identical punches with identical results?

Why do I keep thinking of Roger Irrelevant when reading some of the more outlandish CT guff on this thread?

If a CT is credible, it needs arguments about boxing like it needs a bullet hole in the head.

Love,

Caz
X

For me Caz, we all have the same issue with technical, scientific and medical evidence given by experts in that none of us are really qualified to assess it. We can give our opinions but they are purely layman’s opinions. George, as an example, loves to quote that he knows more about guns than I do. Not a great achievement as I know very close to zilch. But when we produce evidence from people like military grade rifles experts or ballistics experts they get dismissed as tools of the ‘apologists,’ and George places his own knowledge higher than theirs. And how can debate proceed honestly and fairly when every time a piece of physical evidence speaks against conspiracy is produced do we get a calm, reasoned refutation? No we get ‘fake,’ and ‘forgery’ and ‘manipulation. How credible would someone debating the ripper murders be if it went like this:

What about Schwartz’ evidence? - Nobbled by the Police!
What about the McNaghten Memorandum? - Forged!
What about Lawende’s statement? - Forged!
What about the graffito? - Faked!
What about the Eddowes post mortem? - Corrupt and manipulated!

Yet this is what we get, like a mantra, from the conspiracy side without a smidgeon of proper, tangible evidence. Their criteria for fake or forgery appears to be - does it support a conspiracy? If yes, then it’s fine. If no, it’s a fake or forgery. And these are the people that think they are on the higher ground.

Perhaps they could remind us which side every single one of the barking mad theories come from?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Nice to read logical and well thought out post on this. Note that in the Haag interview (ballistic experts that created the 3D laser scan model), they also came to the conclusion that first shot (miss) was made as JFK passed on directly in front on the TSBD.

You always get fair and reasoned points from Frank.

[Aethelwulf]

Thanks, Aethelwulf, and thanks for pointing me to Haag and his work.

Best,
Frank

Cheers Frank. Yes the Haag interview is good. The one point I wanted more clarity on was the (good) condition of the bullet. And there you have it, it wasn't magic after all! Just a shame the published write-up isn't open/pdf to download.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As the CT’s try to discredit Brennan who was looking up at the TSBD as the shots were fired and actually saw the gunman; and they try and discredit the 3 people who were closest to the 6th floor window (Williams, Norman and Jarman on the 5th floor) Shall try another tack?

Marilyn Sitzman who was Abraham Zapruder’s Secretary was standing directly behind Zapruder holding on to him to steady him. If shots had come from the Knoll they would have flown passed her right shoulder (I could be wrong but is there a witness closer to this alleged shooter that Sitzman?) Wouldn’t she have jumped out of her skin had shots wizzed past her shoulder? Where did she say that she thought the bullets came from? Yup…..the TSBD.

She was probably a CIA plant though.

[FrankO]

You always get fair and reasoned points from Frank.

Thanks Mike, I do my best.

[jason_c]

As the CT’s try to discredit Brennan who was looking up at the TSBD as the shots were fired and actually saw the gunman; and they try and discredit the 3 people who were closest to the 6th floor window (Williams, Norman and Jarman on the 5th floor) Shall try another tack?

Marilyn Sitzman who was Abraham Zapruder’s Secretary was standing directly behind Zapruder holding on to him to steady him. If shots had come from the Knoll they would have flown passed her right shoulder (I could be wrong but is there a witness closer to this alleged shooter that Sitzman?) Wouldn’t she have jumped out of her skin had shots wizzed past her shoulder? Where did she say that she thought the bullets came from? Yup…..the TSBD.

She was probably a CIA plant though.

As I said previously any grassy knoll shooter also completely seems to have missed his target. No entrance & exit wounds to Kennedy and Connally seem to indicated a shot from their right/forward right. They wounds generally correspond to bullets coming from behind or ahead of them.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As I said previously any grassy knoll shooter also completely seems to have missed his target. No entrance & exit wounds to Kennedy and Connally seem to indicated a shot from their right/forward right. They wounds generally correspond to bullets coming from behind or ahead of them.

And even Cyril Wecht said that the 2 shots came from behind but he thinks that a separate bullet hit Connally at exactly the same time as the one that hit Kennedy in the back (he suggested a lower floor of the TSBD as a possibility) There’s no evidence for this of course but why should that matter?

[caz]

And just for the information of those who go on about people hearing shots from the Knoll.


216 Assassination Witnesses


Thought that the shots came from the Grassy Knoll - 52


Thought that the shots came from the TSBD - 48


Thought that the shots came from Knoll & TSBD - 5


Thought that the shots came from Elsewhere - 4


Couldn’t tell where they came from - 37


Not Asked - 70



Conclusion: Totally Inconclusive.

Afternoon Herlock,

We all know that lightning is seen before thunder is heard, because light travels faster than sound. Obviously the distances here are huge and I'm not trying to compare a storm in any way with hearing the sound of gunfire and then seeing the consequences. The time gap between gun being fired and target being hit would not have registered with anyone witnessing the assassination, but almost everyone who was not part of the motorcade would instinctively have had their eyes glued to JFK as he was driven past, and would not have been expecting to hear gun shots. What I'm getting at is that the evidence of their eyes would come first, because of what they were already looking at, followed by the evidence of their ears when the shots rang out and they needed a second or two to register what was happening before their very eyes.

How many witnesses would have taken their eyes off JFK and how his body was reacting, to make a sound [as in accurate] assessment of where the sounds of the shots were coming from?

This was a unique situation for everyone who was there, and I don't believe the human brain would have been all that well equipped to interpret both the terrible sights and the shocking sounds in the spur of the moment. I know I very often 'tune out' of what's being said on the radio, for instance, if I'm concentrating hard on something that demands other senses, such as looking, writing or thinking, and I will have no idea what my ears were picking up just moments before.

Love,

Caz
X