JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[DirectorDave]

Jack Rubenstein a "mobster"?

C'mon Harry that's like claiming Annie Chapman was a high class call girl.

[Abby Normal]

Jack Rubenstein a "mobster"?

C'mon Harry that's like claiming Annie Chapman was a high class call girl.

not really. a lot of jews were in the mob-bugsy seigal, Meyer Lansky, Micky cohen just of the top the top of my head.

[Graham]

There is actually quite a bit of evidence that Jack Ruby had mob connections, and also connections with Cuba, and when I get round to it I'll post more information.

Graham

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ok Graham But we can’t just count the fact that it was inevitable that certain low level monsters would have at some time used Ruby’s club.

[Wickerman]

Absolutely Oswald was the shooter. I’m just not totally convinced he was the only one. He definitely took the shot that went through his neck, but if he missed one or two shots other than that is the question IMHO.

And I’m also not saying if there was another shooter it had to be some grand conspiracy, it could have been as simple as Oswald and some other loser he knew. Like one of the Cuban ex pats who was pissed at Kennedy after the failed bay of pigs debacle.

I’ve also found it odd that Oswald was screaming I’m just a patsy as he was being hauled in. Yes he was trying to get away at first but at that point he must have known the gig was up so you would think he would say something like I’m innocent, I didn’t do it, or proudly announce he did it or keep his trap shut. I’m just a patsy de facto means other people were involved, no?

Odd thing to say at that point IMHO.

I wasn't so sure on him actually being the shooter either, he may have been, but....
I was fascinated by this case for years, but what I read about Oswald's involvement suggested to me he may have only being setting up the scene at the Book Depository.
I suspect he genuinely was down in the canteen when the assassination occurred, but he knew someone else had pulled the trigger. To that extent he knew he had become a patsy.
Oswald's actions after the shooting are so strange he seemed to me to be disorganised, yet we are led to believe he was also JFK's assassin?

He was certainly involved, but to what extent is my question.

[Wickerman]

There is actually quite a bit of evidence that Jack Ruby had mob connections, and also connections with Cuba, and when I get round to it I'll post more information.

Graham

Yes, I think that all came out later, but the Warren Commission reported that he had undeniable connections, but that they found no evidence he was directly involved with the Mob.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I wasn't so sure on him actually being the shooter either, he may have been, but....
I was fascinated by this case for years, but what I read about Oswald's involvement suggested to me he may have only being setting up the scene at the Book Depository.
I suspect he genuinely was down in the canteen when the assassination occurred, but he knew someone else had pulled the trigger. To that extent he knew he had become a patsy.
Oswald's actions after the shooting are so strange he seemed to me to be disorganised, yet we are led to believe he was also JFK's assassin?

He was certainly involved, but to what extent is my question.

Hi Jon,

How can we account for the fact that it was Oswald’s rifle, with Oswald’s prints on and with a palm print that was in an area of the gun that could only have been accessed by the person who had assembled it. Oswald’s prints were even on the packaging that he brought the gun to work in.
How come of all the people that worked in the book depository no one saw any strangers in the building?
Oswald actions at Ruth Paines house with his wife show that he knew that he wouldn’t be back.
From what I can recall it was claimed that Oswald was down on the first floor and he went up to the second to get a drink from the machine. Bugliosi looked into this as there was never any mention of any other vending machines. He found that there was a Dr Pepper machine on the first floor (previously unmentioned). Everyone knew that Oswald always drank Dr Pepper so if he was on the first floor there would have been no need to go up to the second to use a machine that didn’t sell the drink that he always drank when there was a machine on the same floor. He lied. He was on the 6th floor.
Howard Brennan saw him at the window with a gun but appeared too nervous to swear to it. Even so it showed that someone matching Oswald’s description was there with a gun. There was no one else.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes, I think that all came out later, but the Warren Commission reported that he had undeniable connections, but that they found no evidence he was directly involved with the Mob.

Accepted Jon. In the night club business knowing dodgy people would have been unavoidable but there’s no evidence that the mob would have used him to kill someone. The important part of that cutting is ‘not affiliated.’
The events of the day that Ruby killed Oswald show no evidence of an organised mob hit. Any number of very slight variables would have made the kill impossible.

[Graham]

The events of the day that Ruby killed Oswald show no evidence of an organised mob hit.

So perhaps you would be kind enough to tell us what a mob hit would look like, evidence-wise?

Graham

[Ozzy]

A little off-topic, one of those weird pieces of trivia...

Sometime in the 1970s I started listening to John Peel on the radio.
I couldn't believe when I heard, 10 - 15 years ago, that he was at a press conference where Oswald was shown as the person they had arrested and charged. Jack Ruby was also at the press conference. It wasn't the day he shot Oswald.

The image is from a video on Youtube in which Ruby, like Peel, is also shown with a circle around him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aHDJy0R8nQ

[Herlock Sholmes]

So perhaps you would be kind enough to tell us what a mob hit would look like, evidence-wise?

Graham

Ignoring the tone of your response, I will.

One that didn’t rely on luck. One that was organised.

Ruby walked across that underground car park and got to Oswald just as he was being brought out. So...

a) would he have stopped off at the Western Union Office to send money to one of his dancers knowing that the slightest delay would scupper his ‘plan?’
b) what if the police officer at the top 0f the ramp hadn’t been chatting to a member of the public allowing Ruby to slip down the ramp?
c) what about Oswald asking for a jacket. If that hadn’t happened he’d have been in the car and gone before Ruby got there.
d) as Bugliosi said, if the assassination was mob-organised then there would have been a car waiting somewhere in or near Dealey Plaza to take Oswald away very likely to his death.
e) The Ruby/mob scenario involves the mafia looking and very fortunately finding an assassin who didn’t mind having no chance of escaping and so was willing to spend the rest of his life behind bars.
f) if the mob wanted to ‘silence’ Oswald why were they not bothered about silencing Ruby who died of cancer?
g) as Ozzy has just reminded us. Ruby was at an ‘Oswald’ press conference. If I recall correctly he even asked a question. Does that speak of a mob hit or just of an obsessive who was known to hang around police officers?
h) as i quoted earlier, even Ruby’s own sister, a perfectly normal, sane woman, said that he was obsessed with Kennedy to the point of worship. And that he cried more at his death than at He death of his parents.
I) my memory may be fawlty on this point so I’ll stand to be corrected but I have the feeling that of all of the Dallas nightclub owners only Ruby closed his club (losing money as a result) out of respect for Kennedy and his family.
J) the Warren investigation ( yes I know, Illuminati shapeshifting traitors to some) checked Ruby’s background thoroughly and accepted that he knew some low level mobsters and dodgy people (let’s face it. In a night club at that time it would have been a miracle if those kind of people hadn’t frequented his club) but there was no ‘connection’ to organised crime.

Surely it’s obvious that there was no great plan here and certainly no conspiracy.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve just noticed that my spelling of ‘fawlty’ is of ‘towers’ rather than ‘faulty!’

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

How can we account for the fact that it was Oswald’s rifle, with Oswald’s prints on and with a palm print that was in an area of the gun that could only have been accessed by the person who had assembled it. Oswald’s prints were even on the packaging that he brought the gun to work in.

In all honesty Herlock, I would expect to see exactly that type of evidence.
Look at it this way, if I'm the Crime Boss who ordered this done, I would want a Special Forces sniper to do the job. But, he is expensive and reliable, so not expendable in my view.
So I also want someone who is expendable to do the leg-work, a bag-man of sorts.
We need an enthusiastic looser who nobody will miss. He buys the gun, he carries the weapon to the site. He sets up the snipers nest.
So, any fingerprints are traced back to him, any receipts are traced back to him. Any witnesses seeing him carrying a gun, setting up the snipers nest, etc. will all identify him.

I agree though, we would expect the actual killer to be responsible for all the above, but thats the point. The authorities are supposed to put 2 & 2 together, just like you did. It must be a forgone conclusion who the killer is, just like you said.

All I'm saying here is, the evidence we see that points to Oswald, is only what we all would expect to see (or what we are supposed to see?).
So to me, it's not all that convincing. It could have been arranged that way.

How come of all the people that worked in the book depository no one saw any strangers in the building?

I think the Warren Commission interviewed about 20 employees of the TSBD.
Was that all of them?, I don't know.
And, given the special day that it was, how many were really paying attention?

One of the obstacles in a conspiracy theory, for me anyway, is, that Oswald got his job at the TSBD before the route was changed. And the route was only finalized seven days before the assassination.
So, it is not easy to say he was set up in that job because the route was supposed to pass directly below, he wasn't.
Also, (I forget the specifics, but) wasn't it his landlady, or a friend of hers who actually got him the job at the TSBD?
So him working there was not planned in advance either.

Howard Brennan saw him at the window with a gun but appeared too nervous to swear to it. Even so it showed that someone matching Oswald’s description was there with a gun. There was no one else.

(was this the witness down in the street?)
How many times do we read of someone who claims, "yeh, I saw the killer too!"
Why would Brennan even be looking up there. I can't believe Oswald will peek his head out the window after he shot the gun.
If he stuck his head out before he shot the gun, then why was Brennan looking up there instead of at the motorcade?

If I've got the wrong witness then I'm sorry, I'm a bit vague on the details at present.

[Wickerman]

d) as Bugliosi said, if the assassination was mob-organised then there would have been a car waiting somewhere in or near Dealey Plaza to take Oswald away very likely to his death.

But that would tie the Mob directly to the crime, and it would suggest a "conspiracy". Remember, there are two scenario's to consider.
1 - Oswald being hired by the Mob to assassinate Kennedy or,
2 - Oswald being an accessory, not being the one who pulled the trigger.
I just think Oswald's actions following the assassination are more in keeping with the 2nd scenario, than the first.

e) The Ruby/mob scenario involves the mafia looking and very fortunately finding an assassin who didn’t mind having no chance of escaping and so was willing to spend the rest of his life behind bars.

Again, in scenario 2, Oswald is supposed to slip out of sight and wait somewhere (presumably?), either to receive his payoff, or to get bumped off.

f) if the mob wanted to ‘silence’ Oswald why were they not bothered about silencing Ruby who died of cancer?

Ruby had claimed his life was in danger, he asked Judge Warren more than once to get him out, to Washington.

I) my memory may be fawlty on this point .....

Basil is one of my favourites too.

[Herlock Sholmes]

In all honesty Herlock, I would expect to see exactly that type of evidence.
Look at it this way, if I'm the Crime Boss who ordered this done, I would want a Special Forces sniper to do the job. But, he is expensive and reliable, so not expendable in my view.
So I also want someone who is expendable to do the leg-work, a bag-man of sorts.
We need an enthusiastic looser who nobody will miss. He buys the gun, he carries the weapon to the site. He sets up the snipers nest.
So, any fingerprints are traced back to him, any receipts are traced back to him. Any witnesses seeing him carrying a gun, setting up the snipers nest, etc. will all identify him.

I agree though, we would expect the actual killer to be responsible for all the above, but thats the point. The authorities are supposed to put 2 & 2 together, just like you did. It must be a forgone conclusion who the killer is, just like you said.

All I'm saying here is, the evidence we see that points to Oswald, is only what we all would expect to see (or what we are supposed to see?).
So to me, it's not all that convincing. It could have been arranged that way.

Surely Jon, in effect, you are saying because the evidence fits Oswald perfectly that’s not really proof because it could have been set up that way? Couldn’t we take many cases where someone is obviously guilty and view it from a ‘set-up’ point of view?
Unless someone can come up with a creditable, provable conspiracy. One that isn’t propounded by obvious liars or people in jail pretending to be hitmen, then we have to accept the evidence as it is? Everything about Oswald and his actions on the day of the assassination and the previous day screams guilt. I genuinely feel that it really is, or should be, case closed.

I think the Warren Commission interviewed about 20 employees of the TSBD.
Was that all of them?, I don't know.
And, given the special day that it was, how many were really paying attention?

I would quibble on numbers Jon but something tells me that it was just 16/17. Oswald was the only one that scarpered.


One of the obstacles in a conspiracy theory, for me anyway, is, that Oswald got his job at the TSBD before the route was changed. And the route was only finalized seven days before the assassination.

I’m pretty sure that it was only decided 3 days before the assassination.

So, it is not easy to say he was set up in that job because the route was supposed to pass directly below, he wasn't.
Also, (I forget the specifics, but) wasn't it his landlady, or a friend of hers who actually got him the job at the TSBD?
So him working there was not planned in advance either.

Couldn’t agree more Jon. How could conspirators, in just three days, have managed to find someone willing to take part in an assassination plan against the President? This surely stretches belief beyond breaking point.


(was this the witness down in the street?)
How many times do we read of someone who claims, "yeh, I saw the killer too!"

True. But believe me there are way more on the conspiracy side who claim to have seen things that they couldn’t possibly have done.

Why would Brennan even be looking up there. I can't believe Oswald will peek his head out the window after he shot the gun.

He just said that he saw someone in the window with a gun that he believed was Oswald or someone who matched his description.

If he stuck his head out before he shot the gun, then why was Brennan looking up there instead of at the motorcade?

Just looking around I assume.

If I've got the wrong witness then I'm sorry, I'm a bit vague on the details at present.

I’m the same Jon. It’s such a minefield of a subject. I got interested a few years ago and for a year I read pretty much nothing but JFK books. But I’m very rusty. As you know there are people out there who are obsessed and would be able to tell you Jim Garrison’s inside leg measurement!

I’d always favoured some form of conspiracy/cover-up. Posner’s gave me doubts. Then I got Bugliosi’s book which I believe is the finest true crime investigation book ever. I’m now absolutely convinced that Oswald alone killed Kennedy. I think the evidence is just about as overwhelming as it could possibly be. And Bugliosi’s in depth analysis of all the conspiracy theories show that they are built on sand and nothing.

I just wish that there was 100th as much evidence against a ripper suspect