JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[cobalt]

Abby,

LBJ remarked himself on the enigma that was Oswald. Some of the gross inconsistencies that exist in what we know of Oswald must surely have been created to cause confusion. Was he a serious marxist rebel opposed to US imperialism? Well he claimed to be, so it is odd he willingly played the part of a fake defector for the CIA. Was he really committed to Fair Play for Cuba? Publicly he was, yet there were sightings (not completely confirmed) of him associating with anti-Castro persons. Or maybe he was infiltrating such groups for the CIA? Did he admire JKF? Apparently, so it’s a funny form of admiration to shoot the man. Could he drive a car? No evidence he could; he certainly didn’t own one but carried a driving licence nonetheless. Could he speak and read Russian? A fair bit after three years in Minsk but on return some claimed he spoke with fluency and command of idiom like a native speaker which is simply impossible given his poor attitude to learning the language in Minsk.

It’s hard to assess Oswald’s character but I think poor attitude pops up in several assessments from school onwards. His work record was judged as below par in most places although that was not the case at the TSBD. A very ordinary man, rather shallow, who believed he had qualities beyond what others could see hence, I suspect, his interest in subversive politics and the CIA. Generally calm and measured with a touch of arrogance. A potential assassin? Some thought so after the event. Others like Buell Frazier and Oswald’s work colleagues in Minsk thought it incredible.

For an ordinary man he crammed a lot into his short life. Served his country, worked for the CIA, lived in the USSR, married a Russian lady, fathered two children, was being imitated in Mexico City and ultimately was involved in some capacity or other in the assassination of the President of the USA. His death was a dramatic public execution relayed round the world. No ordinary life.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It’s also been suggested that there were two nearly simultaneous head shots, from the rear and the side.
I think that’s what Josiah Thompson proposes.

JM

Just from memory I think that’s right Jon. Wecht has proposed a second gunman from behind possibly in a lower floor of the TSBD.

[caz]

The decision by JFK to visit Texas was agreed in June 1963 and the details ironed out right up until a couple of days before the motorcade, which was not initially part of the planned short visit. The decision to have a motorcade through Dallas was agreed in September, before LHO obtained work at the TSBD....

....When the police burst in he realised he had been set up as a ‘patsy.’

You probably already know this Caz but Oswald was looking for work in Dallas so that he could afford to get a place for himself, Marina, June and the new baby. Ruth Paine just happened to meet someone at a party who worked at the TSBD. She asked was told to get Oswald to apply in person (this person was just an employee and don’t know whether he/she actually knew that there were vacancies though)

Afternoon you 'orrible lot.

I have a question for anyone who can help, regardless of their views. If Oswald played no part in the shooting, may we safely assume that he wasn't identified as a potential 'patsy' until after he had applied for work in Dallas, which appears to have been of his own volition? Is anyone here of the opinion that he was singled out before he even began working at the TSBD?

Imagine if JFK's life could have been saved, if only the best brain surgeon in America had been right there at the scene, scrubbed up and ready to go, with all the right equipment. If this surgeon had been just half an hour away by the fastest transport, he'd have been as much bleedin' use to the President as the hole in his head.

Now consider the 'before' instead of the 'after', and where you need your unsuspecting 'patsy' - or Dallas employee - to be, in order to set him up on the day of the motorcade.

First and foremost, Oswald has to come from a pool of people whose daily routine is pretty much guaranteed to find them in Dallas - at the very least - at the same time as JFK. No would've, could've, should've. Nobody outside of that pool will be qualified for the role, regardless of their character, known history or general suitability. They can't be a 'patsy' if they are miles away at the time they are needed.

If nobody involved in the plan could have had anything to do with Oswald getting work at the TSBD, doesn't this mean he could only have been identified as a possibility when he had established a daily working pattern in Dallas, and had been discreetly monitored for his attendance record and reliability? Were they looking for people in his situation when they found Oswald and couldn't believe their luck, due to his unique political background? I still wonder how they considered it an advantage to select this character and set alarm bells ringing in the ears of conspiracy theorists for the rest of recorded time, but each to their own.

From various comments, it would seem that Oswald typically did what Oswald wanted to do, and if anyone thought they were controlling him, politically or otherwise, it was only when it suited him to let them believe it. If he had chosen to find work anywhere else on the planet, he'd have been no use to man nor beast nor conspirator. So would it not be curtains - with or without the rods - for any theory that Oswald became the chosen one when nobody but Oswald himself could have known where he might actually be on 22nd November, for this scheduled close encounter with the President?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Abby,

LBJ remarked himself on the enigma that was Oswald. Some of the gross inconsistencies that exist in what we know of Oswald must surely have been created to cause confusion. Was he a serious marxist rebel opposed to US imperialism? Well he claimed to be, so it is odd he willingly played the part of a fake defector for the CIA. Was he really committed to Fair Play for Cuba? Publicly he was, yet there were sightings (not completely confirmed) of him associating with anti-Castro persons. Or maybe he was infiltrating such groups for the CIA? Did he admire JKF? Apparently, so it’s a funny form of admiration to shoot the man. Could he drive a car? No evidence he could; he certainly didn’t own one but carried a driving licence nonetheless. Could he speak and read Russian? A fair bit after three years in Minsk but on return some claimed he spoke with fluency and command of idiom like a native speaker which is simply impossible given his poor attitude to learning the language in Minsk.

It’s hard to assess Oswald’s character but I think poor attitude pops up in several assessments from school onwards. His work record was judged as below par in most places although that was not the case at the TSBD. A very ordinary man, rather shallow, who believed he had qualities beyond what others could see hence, I suspect, his interest in subversive politics and the CIA. Generally calm and measured with a touch of arrogance. A potential assassin? Some thought so after the event. Others like Buell Frazier and Oswald’s work colleagues in Minsk thought it incredible.

For an ordinary man he crammed a lot into his short life. Served his country, worked for the CIA, lived in the USSR, married a Russian lady, fathered two children, was being imitated in Mexico City and ultimately was involved in some capacity or other in the assassination of the President of the USA. His death was a dramatic public execution relayed round the world. No ordinary life.

Sounds to me like a fantasist with a superiority complex, who had no genuine or particular loyalty to any one political group or country, but enjoyed ducking and diving and keeping people guessing about what made him tick, when there may have been nothing of any real substance between his ears.

Just the sort of person who might find some amusement in the thought of going out with a bang after making the President of the US of A do the same. His name would be on everyone's lips whenever they thought of JFK.

A Mark Chapman complex?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

As I've said before, I can readily understand the panic in high places after the event, when it would have been appreciated just what a liability Oswald was going to be, considering everything that was known about the man - and equally what they didn't know.

That only makes it less likely, in my opinion, that anyone involved in damage limitation would have been part of a conspiracy to select Oswald, of all people, in the first place, and not expect the trouble it would cause.

Love,

Caz
X

[Herlock Sholmes]

Jack Ruby asked for, was given, and "passed with flying colours" a polygraph test. Although not 100% proof of his honesty, this does put a dent in any attempt to prove he conspired in any way. That he was telling the truth is more likely than the claim he lied.

This is a detailed rundown of the lie detector episode Doc. It has to be asked - would a guy who was part of a conspiracy to silence Oswald have been so insistent on taking a test (even offering to take a truth serum) Especially of entirely his own volition?

https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-17.html

[Herlock Sholmes]

Afternoon you 'orrible lot.

I have a question for anyone who can help, regardless of their views. If Oswald played no part in the shooting, may we safely assume that he wasn't identified as a potential 'patsy' until after he had applied for work in Dallas, which appears to have been of his own volition? Is anyone here of the opinion that he was singled out before he even began working at the TSBD?

Imagine if JFK's life could have been saved, if only the best brain surgeon in America had been right there at the scene, scrubbed up and ready to go, with all the right equipment. If this surgeon had been just half an hour away by the fastest transport, he'd have been as much bleedin' use to the President as the hole in his head.

Now consider the 'before' instead of the 'after', and where you need your unsuspecting 'patsy' - or Dallas employee - to be, in order to set him up on the day of the motorcade.

First and foremost, Oswald has to come from a pool of people whose daily routine is pretty much guaranteed to find them in Dallas - at the very least - at the same time as JFK. No would've, could've, should've. Nobody outside of that pool will be qualified for the role, regardless of their character, known history or general suitability. They can't be a 'patsy' if they are miles away at the time they are needed.

If nobody involved in the plan could have had anything to do with Oswald getting work at the TSBD, doesn't this mean he could only have been identified as a possibility when he had established a daily working pattern in Dallas, and had been discreetly monitored for his attendance record and reliability? Were they looking for people in his situation when they found Oswald and couldn't believe their luck, due to his unique political background? I still wonder how they considered it an advantage to select this character and set alarm bells ringing in the ears of conspiracy theorists for the rest of recorded time, but each to their own.

From various comments, it would seem that Oswald typically did what Oswald wanted to do, and if anyone thought they were controlling him, politically or otherwise, it was only when it suited him to let them believe it. If he had chosen to find work anywhere else on the planet, he'd have been no use to man nor beast nor conspirator. So would it not be curtains - with or without the rods - for any theory that Oswald became the chosen one when nobody but Oswald himself could have known where he might actually be on 22nd November, for this scheduled close encounter with the President?

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

Its just inconceivable (imo) that anyone, no matter what resources they had at their fingertips, could have put together such an all-encompassing plan in just 3-4 days. As you’ve said, just to have found someone who was a reasonable enough shot and who was actually prepared to kill the President and was willing to take the huge risk (considering he had a wife, a daughter and a baby due. And someone who could locate himself at a likely spot without drawing attention to him himself (so in the absence of a deserted building it would have to be at a location where he had every right to have been been - so no possibility of an “who are you and what are you doing with that rifle?) Even as a ‘patsy’ the same criteria would apply.

Ruth Paine, who knew him pretty well (she had even given him a few driving lessons) said that she judged him as a man who saw himself as exceptional but was frustrated that others didn’t see him in that way. A man who had no real friends. His coworkers said that he really did keep himself to himself. A disaffected loner.

[jmenges]

The HSCA selected 3 independent experts to review Ruby’s polygraph exam their less than flattering opinions of the procedure can be found here:

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol8/pdf/HSCA_Vol8_RubyPolygraph.pdf

JM

[Abby Normal]

Abby,

LBJ remarked himself on the enigma that was Oswald. Some of the gross inconsistencies that exist in what we know of Oswald must surely have been created to cause confusion. Was he a serious marxist rebel opposed to US imperialism? Well he claimed to be, so it is odd he willingly played the part of a fake defector for the CIA. Was he really committed to Fair Play for Cuba? Publicly he was, yet there were sightings (not completely confirmed) of him associating with anti-Castro persons. Or maybe he was infiltrating such groups for the CIA? Did he admire JKF? Apparently, so it’s a funny form of admiration to shoot the man. Could he drive a car? No evidence he could; he certainly didn’t own one but carried a driving licence nonetheless. Could he speak and read Russian? A fair bit after three years in Minsk but on return some claimed he spoke with fluency and command of idiom like a native speaker which is simply impossible given his poor attitude to learning the language in Minsk.

It’s hard to assess Oswald’s character but I think poor attitude pops up in several assessments from school onwards. His work record was judged as below par in most places although that was not the case at the TSBD. A very ordinary man, rather shallow, who believed he had qualities beyond what others could see hence, I suspect, his interest in subversive politics and the CIA. Generally calm and measured with a touch of arrogance. A potential assassin? Some thought so after the event. Others like Buell Frazier and Oswald’s work colleagues in Minsk thought it incredible.

For an ordinary man he crammed a lot into his short life. Served his country, worked for the CIA, lived in the USSR, married a Russian lady, fathered two children, was being imitated in Mexico City and ultimately was involved in some capacity or other in the assassination of the President of the USA. His death was a dramatic public execution relayed round the world. No ordinary life.

yes a fascinating, enigmatic and complicated life... but in the end a sad little loser and traitor to his country none the less. IMHO

[cobalt]

To pick up a couple of points raised by Caz. Undoubtedly there was some sort of conspiracy after the event to conceal what had been a catastrophic failure in security. Jesse Curry explained on 23^rd November that at all times Oswald was being questioned by a Dallas Homicide Detective, a member of the FBI and a member of the CIA. Each agency would be defending its corner obviously. Curry made a remark that appeared critical of the FBI and was forced to withdraw it at the next press bulletin.

As for conspiracy before the shooting, it had much more than three days to be organised. Oswald (according to FBI letters) had been impersonated as early as 1960 when he was in the USSR! He was again being impersonated in Mexico City (according to FBI letters and tapes) in September 1963- before he found employment at the TSBD. My earlier post referred to the decision to use the Trade Mart in Dallas also having been decided in September, which later (no date known) required the motorcade to turn down Elm Street. So Oswald was being linked to Cuba and the Elm Street turn being negotiated before Oswald ever took up work at the TSBD.

'but in the end a sad little loser and traitor to his country none the less. IMHO'

I'm not so sure. If he was the lone gunman, far from being a loser he was the most successful terrorist in modern history. On the other hand, if Oswald was infiltrating an anti-Castro group who wanted Kennedy removed then far from being a traitor he was actually a patriot. The cancelled JFK visit to Chicago in early November 1963 might be worth some investigation in relation to the latter point.

[Aethelwulf]

Ruth Paine, who knew him pretty well (she had even given him a few driving lessons) said that she judged him as a man who saw himself as exceptional but was frustrated that others didn’t see him in that way. A man who had no real friends. His coworkers said that he really did keep himself to himself. A disaffected loner.

Sounds reminiscent of what people say about serial killers when they are identified.

He certainly makes an unlikely suspect for a sniper assassin. I mean, he was deemed to be a sharpshooter or marksman, owned a rifle that is indistinguishable from the one taken from the building, he worked in the building where the gun was found and was seen in the building shortly before the the assassination. Turns out he had form, in his attempt to assassinate Edwin Walker several months before JFK. Can see why people turn to conspiracy because he makes a mighty unlikely suspect.

Compare what we know about LHO with the various theories people have put forward on here - absolute pie in the sky, every one, with not a shred of evidence.

My thoughts on this aren't that different to the ripper in some ways. The type of people who are willing to commit these most serious and unusual crimes aren't growing on trees by the dozen. If there is someone in the area at the right time with form, likelihood is it was them IMO.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The HSCA selected 3 independent experts to review Ruby’s polygraph exam their less than flattering opinions of the procedure can be found here:

https://history-matters.com/archive/...yPolygraph.pdf

JM

There were certainly critics as the report shows but I’d consider it a strong point that it was Ruby himself who asked for it, or even a truth serum Jon. That points either to his belief (for whatever reason) that he could somehow beat the test or that he was confident that he was telling the truth.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It’s probably impossible to accurately assess the ramifications but it’s certainly worth considering - what would the consequences have been for any conspirators and what would have been the effects on the country itself and it’s standing in the world if it had been revealed that (insert list of suggested conspirators here….the Vice President, the government, the Army, the Police, the FBI, The CIA and the Secret Service plus any others) had been complicit in the murder of the President? Can we even begin to imagine? Could it be overestimated?

It would have been the equivalent of a tightrope walk across the Grand Canyon, one tiny slip up, one tiny error of judgment, one gust of wind, one swooping bird……

And all of this rather than……sniper with a top rifle, in a room alone wearing gloves and with no connection to the gun, bang, bang, down the lift/stairs, into a waiting car…….heading out of Dallas within 2 or 3 minutes of the final shot while the authorities are still looking around scratching their heads……vanished.

[Herlock Sholmes]

On from the above. If we consider the likelihood of any type of conspiracy, cover-up, collusion, however we frame it, if we started from one joint assassin and then move through two then three all the way up to all of the agencies mentioned which would incorporate who knows how many people, wouldn’t we at the very least have to conclude that the more we moved from minimum to maximum the less likely and less likely and less feasible it would become?

[rjpalmer]

what would have been the effects on the country itself and it’s standing in the world if it had been revealed that (insert list of suggested conspirators here….the Vice President, the government, the Army, the Police, the FBI, The CIA and the Secret Service plus any others) had been complicit in the murder of the President? Can we even begin to imagine? Could it be overestimated?

It's not entirely clear what you're attempting to argue, Herlock, but I personally find this line of inquiry somewhat passé in the year of our Lord, 2023. Many people in the U.S. believe there was a widespread conspiracy to overthrow the U.S. election in 2020 up to an including the President himself, and yet three years later no one of any consequence has gone to prison or has even been charged. The only ones charged have been the out-and-out looneys who wore buffalo horns on their heads, etc.

Pretty much everyone--right and left--believes there was a conspiracy, they just disagree who was behind it.