JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[Herlock Sholmes]

One witness did actually say he carried nothing in his hand that morning.

Yes there was George but you’ve neglected the details.

His name was Jack Dougherty who said:

”I recall vaguely having seen Lee Oswald when he came to work at about 8 am.” And he: “didn’t see anything in his hands at that time.” He then added: “ I just caught him out of the corner of my eye.”

Dougherty’s own Father told the FBI on the day of the assassination that his son had received a medical discharge from the army and that he had: “considerable difficulty in coordinating his mental faculties and his speech.”

Later, Roy Truly told the Secret Service that: “although Dougherty is a very good employee and a hard worker, he is mentally retarded and has difficulty in remembering facts, such as dates, times, places, and has been especially confused since the assassination.”

Dougherty is the only witness against Oswald carrying a package. I think that we can safely dispense with him.

[Herlock Sholmes]

HS and yourself want the witnesses to be accurate on curtain rods but mistaken on package length. Can you fit a rifle in your handbag?

You really are digging a hole for yourself on this issue George. Perhaps I should just throw this question open to others who can respond openly. Which of the following 3 are more believable and more likely?

1. That Frazier and Randle told the truth but there estimate of the length of the package was out - despite the fact that Randle’s initial impression was that it was 36 inches long (another inconvenient point which George turns a blind eye to)?

2. That Frazier lied about Oswald telling him that he’d come to the Paiine’s on the Thursday to pick up curtain rods. Then Randle lied by confirming that Frazier had indeed mentioned this. Then Frazier lied again by saying that Oswald said that there were curtain rods in the package?

3. That Frazier imagined that Oswald said that he’d come to collect curtain rods. Randle confirmed it. Then next day Frazier imagined that Oswald said that the package contained curtain rods?


George and Fishy MUST go for 2 or 3 but they just can’t bring themselves to say it. I go for the obvious number 1.

Open question to all. Which is it? 1, 2 or 3?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Doctors are experts on ballistics? I'm still waiting on your photo of the magic bullet from an angle showing a crushing at the front.

No more so than Super Nurse. But I don’t know about you George but if I want to know the results of an autopsy I don’t waste much time thinking “now who should I ask. The 3 Doctors performing the autopsy or a Nurse who was passing them things and carrying stuff away?”

You and Fishy would clearly go to the Nurse (perhaps taking a second opinion from the janitor?)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Doctors are experts on ballistics? I'm still waiting on your photo of the magic bullet from an angle showing a crushing at the front.

I don’t have it on me George. Strange that. I usually carry a full set of JFK assassination documentation around with me. Perhaps the HSCA were mistaken when they said that there were 4 photographs of the bullet. Or perhaps it was a conspiracy?

[Herlock Sholmes]

In what way are you an expert on bullet fragments? You have no idea how small an amount is a grain (1/7000 of a Lb or 0.065gms). It is a minute amount that could not be weighed on anything but a high end powder scale, which of course everyone carries around with them.

So you want Frazier and Randle correct on curtain rods but mistaken on rifle size?

No I’m not. And I’d suggest that Super Nurse Bell wasn’t either.

But yes I did know that these grains were minute. Nurse B obviously had remarkable eyesight and knowledge though to pronounce (without weighing the pieces or the bullet - and without a microscope either) that there were more fragments found inside Kennedy than were actually missing from the bullet.

I think we can dump Bell onto the subs bench alongside Dougherty . I’ll stick with the Drs Humes, Boswell and Finck if you don’t mind.

[Herlock Sholmes]

A better photograph of the ‘clearly not pristine’ bullet. Does that end look ‘round and undamaged’ to anyone?

[GBinOz]

Increasing deranged posts.
Well, I've come to the right place then. I used to wonder why you were never at the "Nice Guy" meetings. I see now. You can't post on a subject where there is disagreement without resorting to denigrating language - deranged, pathetic, loony, cowardly.... A substitute for relevant debate I should think.

First.

I tell you what George, when I get time I’ll read back through this thread. I’ll log how many questions that I’ve been asked and how many I’ve answered. Then I’ll log how many questions I’ve asked and how many of them you, Fishy and Cobalt have responded too.

I think we all know what the score will be despite the above lie.
I suppose you'll be tallying up all your "what if" speculations.
……..


Second.

Its ironic but fitting that you mention Richardson, Long and Cadosch. Three witness who you believe to have been mistaken as human beings can be. And yet you cannot accept that Frazier and Randle could have been mistaken in what was an estimation. It looks like witnesses can only be mistaken when you it suits you.
On the Richardson thread I was, as stated, 55/45%. You were 100%, I'm right, close the thread. You want me to say that Frazier and Randle were right about curtain rods but mistaken about the package size. Look at you last sentence here.
……

Third.

Yet another thing you’ve avoided. No response to Randle’s earlier statement that the package was 3 feet long. You must have forgotten…again George
So he changed his story when cross examined. Can you accept the earlier statements that the rifle was a Mauser 7.65?
…….

Fourth.

Your biggest obfuscation of all. There was no “death by curtain rods” because there were no curtain rods in the first place. It was a lie told by the obviously guilty Lee Harvey Oswald. And you simple cannot bring yourself to accuse Frazier and Randle of lying can you. You just keep dodging the issue embarrassingly just like your little cheerleader.
Once again you want Frazier and Randle to be absolutely right on a point that has no relevance, and mistaken on the point that counts - that the package was not long enough to accommodate even a broken down rifle. This was their testimony. Then you waffle about estimates of size. They gave body comparisons relating to how the package was being carried which were consistent with their measurement estimates. But you want to divert to curtain rods and sandwiches. So here is my position. Pay attention. Frazier and Randle were NOT LYING with regard to their testimony under cross examination about the size of the package being too small to accommodate a rifle. With regard to the irrelevancies of curtain rod and sandwich disagreements, this can only be the subject of speculation (your specialty) and I have provided a link to possible speculative answers. That is my answer, which I have provided previously but will not provide again. You claim that I don't answer.....you just don't read replies.
……

You MUST realise how badly you’re being utterly mauled in this debate by now. Surely? Your blatant obfuscation and dodges tell me that you do.

A severe beating with a limp lettuce leaf eh?

[GBinOz]

A better photograph of the ‘clearly not pristine’ bullet. Does that end look ‘round and undamaged’ to anyone?

Does it look crushed like the test bullets to anyone?

[GBinOz]

No I’m not. And I’d suggest that Super Nurse Bell wasn’t either.

But yes I did know that these grains were minute. Nurse B obviously had remarkable eyesight and knowledge though to pronounce (without weighing the pieces or the bullet - and without a microscope either) that there were more fragments found inside Kennedy than were actually missing from the bullet.

I think we can dump Bell onto the subs bench alongside Dougherty . I’ll stick with the Drs Humes, Boswell and Finck if you don’t mind.

So you carry around a powder scale AND a microscope with you, AS WELL AS a full set of JFK assassination documentation. Impressive.

[GBinOz]

A better photograph of the ‘clearly not pristine’ bullet. Does that end look ‘round and undamaged’ to anyone?

Just FYI the blunt end goes into the cartridge case. See the groove near the back? That's to crimp the case onto the bullet. It's the pointy end that does the damage and becomes deformed. You would be aware that samples of the copper and the lead were taken for scientific analysis and comparison. That's the hole in the back and the small cut at the pointy end. Here is what the bullet should have looked like after causing seven wounds, three of which were on bone ( the blunt ends on the left, the former pointy ends on the right):



Can anyone spot the difference between these and the magic bullet?

Here's an analogy my friend. Find a brick wall and hit your head against it seven times, really hard. Then, have the paramedics inspect the soles of your shoes for damage.

[Fiver]

All of this has been reasonably disputed. Just a few examples: No one has ever been able to replicate the shots from the 6th floor.

In tests made in 1967 by CBS, several men were able to put 2 or 3 shots on target in less than 6 seconds.

The one eyewitness testimony on the ground is questionable when they include the height of the man seen in the window at a time when the shooter is crouching.

We have testimony on the ground from Robert Jackson, Malcolm Couch, James Crawford, Mrs Cabell, James Worrell, Amos Euins, and Howard Brennan. Brennan said that after the third shot he saw the man standing and then moving away from the window out of sight. His description, which he gave to police could fit many people, but it definitely fit LHO.

People inside the TSBD who were proven to be going down the stairway at the same time the government needs Oswald on the same stairway heard and saw no one.

Based on the time estimate given by Victoria Adams, she and Sandra Styles would have passed down the stairwell before Oswald did. Adams said she saw Billy Lovelady and William Shelly when she reached the ground floor, but they said they didn't re-enter the building until about 5 minutes after the shooting. If those men's time estimates are correct, Adams went down the stairs much layer than she recalls.

The prints lifted off of the gun occurred after his death- and after originally no prints were found- and they came from a part of the rifle only accessible when the rifle was disassembled.

Lt Carl Day dusted the boxes, spent cartridges, and windowsill at the crime scene on the day JFK was shot. Day found two palmprints and a fingerprint of Oswald's on the boxes. Once he returned to the crime lab, Day dusted the rifle for prints. He found partial prints near the trigger guard and at the main barrel. They were consistent with Oswald's prints, but not complete enough to make a positive identification. Lt. Day also took a palm print from the rifle stock, which matched Oswald.

Day then received orders that the FBI would be picking up the rifle, which they did around 11:30pm that night.

The second page of his PO Box application where the rifle was delivered listing other individuals who the applicant also gave permission to access the PO Box conveniently disappeared.

JM

How was that convenient?

"It is not known whether the application for post office box 2915 listed "A. Hidell" as a person entitled to receive mail at this box. In accordance with postal regulations, the portion of the application which lists names of persons, other than the applicant, entitled to receive mail was thrown away after the box was closed on May 1963." - WCR

[jmenges]

Regarding the 1967 CBS documentary, Josiah Thompson devotes an entire section of his book to it.
The marksmen were allowed ample time to practice, they did not have defective sights, and "Of the thirty-seven firing runs only ten (27 percent) were fired in 5.6 seconds or less. On these runs the marksmen made anywhere from zero to three hits-- their average was 1.3 hits for every 3 shots fired. Taking into account all the runs fired in less than 7.5 seconds, the average was 1.2 hits for every three shots fired."
Oswald supposedly got two hits between 4.8 and 5.6 seconds.

This made-for-television experiment cannot be said to have duplicated what Oswald was accused to have done.

JM

[Fiver]

The original Wiegman and Darnell home movie films showing "Prayer Man" (who many believe to be LHO) on the steps of the TSBD are still being held by NBC who after 60 years are still refusing to release them and are now a part of the lawsuit brought by the Mary Ferrell Foundation. It's this puzzling decision by NBC to keep the original films hidden that has continued to breathe life into Oswald being "Prayer Man".
If the original films are released and the man seen resembles Oswald even more so, then pairing that with Hosty's notes stating Oswald claimed he was on the steps... even some lone nutters are saying that the case against Oswald goes "poof". Of course the opposite can also be proven true with the release of the original films and "Prayer Man" goes "poof".

JM

The figure on the steps has been identified as Billy Lovelady by Roy Truly, Buell Frazier, James Jarman,Harold Norman,Sarah Stanton, William Shelley^, Danny Garcia Arce, Virginia Baker, and Lovelady himself.

The Dave Weigman film is available on Youtube.

The James Darnell film is also available.

[jmenges]

The figure on the steps has been identified as Billy Lovelady by Roy Truly, Buell Frazier, James Jarman,Harold Norman,Sarah Stanton, William Shelley^, Danny Garcia Arce, Virginia Baker, and Lovelady himself.

The Dave Weigman film is available on Youtube.

The James Darnell film is also available.

No. Lovelady was identified correctly in the Altgens 6 photo peeking around the corner of the entrance way. That's not 'Prayer Man' since Lovelady is standing near 'Prayer Man' in the Wiegman film. Plus, Lovelady stated he was on the island on Elm Street looking back at the building when Baker and Truly entered.


JM

[FISHY1118]

Just FYI the blunt end goes into the cartridge case. See the groove near the back? That's to crimp the case onto the bullet. It's the pointy end that does the damage and becomes deformed. You would be aware that samples of the copper and the lead were taken for scientific analysis and comparison. That's the hole in the back and the small cut at the pointy end. Here is what the bullet should have looked like after causing seven wounds, three of which were on bone ( the blunt ends on the left, the former pointy ends on the right):



Can anyone spot the difference between these and the magic bullet?

Here's an analogy my friend. Find a brick wall and hit your head against it seven times, really hard. Then, have the paramedics inspect the soles of your shoes for damage.