JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Joshua,

It's not what Chapman says. It's what is said in the autopsy and forensics reports, which was that the fatal shot came from Lennon's left and slightly in front of him. Chapman was behind Lennon and to the right.

RFK's autopsy stated that the fatal shot was just behind the right ear, in an upward direction and at a range of 1-3 inches. Sirhan was in front of RFK and to his left and was 3-6 feet away. RFK junior has examined all the evidence and has stated that he doesn't believe Sirhan fired the shot that killed his father.

My contention is that the medical and forensic evidence does not support the government narrative for JFK, RFK and Lennon.

Cheers, George

Thanks. I don't want to derail the thread (any further), but any chance you have a link to the Lennon autopsy report?

I've not been able to find the report itself online, only second hand descriptions of it, which seem confusing and sometimes contradictory.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Did Bugliosi touch upon the incomprehensibly varying accounts of Oswald’s fluency in the Russian language?

On arrival in the USSR Oswald had no ability in Russian, something that aroused the suspicions of the KGB since they assumed a genuine defector would have made the effort to acquire some. Nor did Oswald show much enthusiasm during the regular language lessons provided by the Soviets. Naturally enough they suspected his ignorance of Russian might be feigned so he was constantly monitored and had his apartment ‘bugged,’ but if it was all an act then he seems to have carried it off successfully.

The Oswald who arrived back in the USA with his wife would have acquired decent conversational Russian and possibly slightly higher ability in reading. Yet émigré Russians have described a man who felt more comfortable on occasion discussing politics and literature in Russian. One claimed he spoke near perfect Russian with a clear command of idioms and expressions. Clearly either these witnesses are not telling the truth or they were speaking to someone else. No one with Oswald’s known educational background, even someone with a talent for picking up new languages, could have reached that level inside a couple of years.

After a quick scan through I found these excepts (not direct quotes btw).

The first entry says that it was clear to his army friends that he was learning Russian, reading Russian newspapers etc but less that 2 months after his arrival at the base he took the Marine Corps Proficiency Test in Russian and scored poorly in all categories. Bugliosi does make the point that the test was designed for native speakers and students at the rigorous military language school and that Oswald was self-taught. Before that he was learning Russian in Japan and appeared to have the rudiments of the language. Someone who was with him in Japan called Paul Murphy said “I remember that Oswald could speak a little Russian.” Fellow Marines called him “Oswaldovich,” and he often answered them with ‘nyet’ or ‘da.’

Then…Oswald intended to enrol at the Albert Schweitzer College in Switzerland to study Philosophy and he told them that he had fluency in Russian equivalent to a years schooling.

In Russia Oswald wrote in his diary “I have bought myself two self-teaching Russian language books. I will force myself to study them 8 hours a day. I sit in my room and read and memorise words.”

During his time in Russia Rimma Sevenovna visited him several times and noticed no improvement in his Russian despite his study. A woman called Stellina tried to improve his Russian during walks.

A man called Stepan Vasilyevich Gregorieff (an agent at the Minsk KGB) was assigned to watch Oswald to determine certain things, one of which was whether he was really as inept and unskilled at the Russian language or was he only pretending to be?

His Russian improved with the help of friends Golovachev and Titovets.

Back in the USA in the emigré community Anna Meller and George Bouhe both said that Oswald spoke Russian well, so he appears to have improved. They also noted that he didn’t want Marina to speak a single word of English to him so that his Russian would continue to improve.

That’s all I can see on Oswald and the Russian language but I can’t 100% say that I haven’t missed anything. In such a huge book stuff is so spread out.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ahhh Brillient Herlock , i thought you were above this kind of nonsense , silly me . Now take note George, this is how Apoligist deflect , detract, and mock , what they clearly refuse to acknowegde..... ''The Facts'' . Its what they have been doing since trying to defend the undefendable Warren Commission report for 60 years.

Two different Rilfles = Conspiracy

Well it appears that some conspiracy theorists have had a sense of humour bypass? Lighten up Fishy. It was a joke.

Ill ask you, and anyone else, a question.

If there’s now conclusive evidence of a conspiracy to kill Kennedy, as is being alleged, why is there no be TV or newspaper revelation? Are every newspaper or TV channel in the USA, the UK, Europe or the rest of the world ‘apologists’ as you call them? They don’t appear to be considering how many conspiracy-based documentaries that are doing the rounds all over the internet and on TV. How many countries would love a chance of discrediting the USA with this kind of revelation? Where are the headlines “Kennedy Killed By Conspiracy - Proven At Last!” Perhaps this is a conspiracy too? It simply can’t be suggested that this kind of ‘revelation’ wouldn’t be headline news. Or is it a case of, just like all other theories or interpretations of evidence, there are more than one interpretation and that the conclusions are debatable? Perhaps the ones that are convinced are the one that have been convinced all along?

I’d call that proof that it’s not ‘game over’ apart from in the opinion of conspiracy theorist.

[FISHY1118]

Hmm. Perhaps you'd like to point out the model number in the advert that you're referring to.

Oswald ordered a C20 -T750 Carcano Rifle as per his order form .

[Herlock Sholmes]

I suggest you watch ''The Innocents of Lee Harvey Oswald'' ... 19.20 to 21.40. It contains This FBI version of an Official report, signed mind you by J Edgar Hoover on the 23rd of Nov 1963 the very next day which shows exactly why LBJ made the Warren Commision make sure a alone gunman was responsible for kennedys murder.

Only then did the FBI go into full swing , the rest is history.

And I’d suggest that you buy and read Reclaiming History by Vincent Bugliosi or, perish the thought, people might think that you’re only interested in stuff on the conspiracy theory side.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Herlock, really???

This is a sketch of the 3 shots that hit RFK according to the autopsy and forensics:


The fatal shot was the one in the centre, range 1-3 inches. There were 13 bullets found. Sirhan's revolver held only 8. But you choose to rigidly believe the authorities story regardless of evidence, so I can only reflect on the statement in your signature.

Cheers, George

The question that I asked Fishy in #332 applies here too George. Why are none of these ‘game over’ points making headline news? It can’t be suggested that the entire world’s press and TV companies are WC apologists who are terrified of upsetting the USA. Now that would be the conspiracy of silence to end all conspiracies of silence.

[Joshua Rogan]

Oswald ordered a C20 -T750 Carcano Rifle as per his order form .

That is not the model of rifle, that is Klein's catalogue order code used when ordering the advertised rifle plus brand new scope.

[FISHY1118]

Well it appears that some conspiracy theorists have had a sense of humour bypass? Lighten up Fishy. It was a joke.

Ill ask you, and anyone else, a question.

If there’s now conclusive evidence of a conspiracy to kill Kennedy, as is being alleged, why is there no be TV or newspaper revelation? Are every newspaper or TV channel in the USA, the UK, Europe or the rest of the world ‘apologists’ as you call them? They don’t appear to be considering how many conspiracy-based documentaries that are doing the rounds all over the internet and on TV. How many countries would love a chance of discrediting the USA with this kind of revelation? Where are the headlines “Kennedy Killed By Conspiracy - Proven At Last!” Perhaps this is a conspiracy too? It simply can’t be suggested that this kind of ‘revelation’ wouldn’t be headline news. Or is it a case of, just like all other theories or interpretations of evidence, there are more than one interpretation and that the conclusions are debatable? Perhaps the ones that are convinced are the one that have been convinced all along?

I’d call that proof that it’s not ‘game over’ apart from in the opinion of conspiracy theorist.

In case you havent noticed its 60s years later, the world is not interested any more in who killed kennedy. The main stream media have drummed the warren commission nonsense over and over for decades job done [for the masses anyway]. If jesus christ himself came down to earth and said ''i shot kennedy from the grassy knoll'' they cross straight to the weather with ''oh we had record temperatures in miami today'' .

[FISHY1118]

And I’d suggest that you buy and read Reclaiming History by Vincent Bugliosi or, perish the thought, people might think that you’re only interested in stuff on the conspiracy theory side.

What for ?

[FISHY1118]

That is not the model of rifle, that is Klein's catalogue order code used when ordering the advertised rifle plus brand new scope.

You are correct , can you show where oswald received the groove model rifle ? ive not see any infomation on that .

[GBinOz]

Thanks. I don't want to derail the thread (any further), but any chance you have a link to the Lennon autopsy report?

I've not been able to find the report itself online, only second hand descriptions of it, which seem confusing and sometimes contradictory.

Hi Joshua,

You're right. I spent several hours today searching for that report to refresh my memory, but I could only find confusing descriptions. I can only apologise for making claims for which I can't locate a reference. It was many years ago and I now suspect that I may have been looking at the theories of Fenton Bresler. I should have updated my knowledge before commenting.

These comments don't apply to the RFK case as I am sure of the evidence in that case. And contrary to what Herlock has posted, RFK Jnr's support for Sirhan's innocence is receiving a great deal of press coverage.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Ahhh Brillient Herlock , i thought you were above this kind of nonsense , silly me . Now take note George, this is how Apoligist deflect , detract, and mock , what they clearly refuse to acknowegde..... ''The Facts'' . Its what they have been doing since trying to defend the undefendable Warren Commission report for 60 years.

Two different Rilfles = Conspiracy

Hi Fishy,

I thought the clown depiction could be taken as offensive, but knowing Herlock I suspected he was just attempting humour. I expect that if you posted this picture with name tags attached of Herlock and other apologists he would take it in the same humorous vein:



It's just what we Aussies call "taking the Mickey", so lets all have a laugh at ourselves and each other and move on.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

The question that I asked Fishy in #332 applies here too George. Why are none of these ‘game over’ points making headline news? It can’t be suggested that the entire world’s press and TV companies are WC apologists who are terrified of upsetting the USA. Now that would be the conspiracy of silence to end all conspiracies of silence.

Ah Herlock, you never fail to disappoint, my friend. When you can't explain, deflect and ignore.

I agree with Fishy that the world has moved on since 1963 and such things are no longer of interest. News and TV revolve around "reality" shows, and the Kardashians, and the producers of cacophonies that are labelled as music......Yikes, I am getting old.

Bugliosi? I am too old to devote time to reading 1600 pages of conjecture and supposition that science has debunked beyond any reasonable doubt. But have you viewed the videos to which I provided links? There is only a few hours involved there, and you wouldn't want people to think that you’re only interested in stuff on the apologist theory side.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

In case you havent noticed its 60s years later, the world is not interested any more in who killed kennedy. The main stream media have drummed the warren commission nonsense over and over for decades job done [for the masses anyway]. If jesus christ himself came down to earth and said ''i shot kennedy from the grassy knoll'' they cross straight to the weather with ''oh we had record temperatures in miami today'' .

Nonsense. How can you claim that this wouldn’t be huge? What planet are you on? It would be headline news in every newspaper on the planet and on every TV channel.

I really can’t believe you’ve even suggested this.

[Herlock Sholmes]

What for ?

It’s called looking at both sides. I have between 40 and 45 books on the case up in my loft. All but 2 or perhaps 3 are pro-conspiracy. So I can’t be accused of only looking at one side. You on the other hand only appear to be interested in conspiracy-related stuff, written by conspiracy theorists largely for conspiracy theorists. And when one of the USA’s top Prosecutor’s releases his long awaited 1600 page analysis of the case you won’t even give it a read simply because you know that he doesn’t go for a conspiracy.

And you ask why you should give it a chance?