JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[DJA]

Did Castro allow the Mafia to resume gambling activities in Cuba around that time?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Afternoon Herlock,

I'm always interested in how the conspiracy theorists believe this was all engineered, and what they think the logistics would have involved. Do they have Oswald in on the plot somehow, but just not firing the fatal shot, or perhaps no shots at all? If he was a completely unwitting 'patsy', there would have been no way for the conspirators to predict any of his movements that day, let alone control them in such a way that they could later be synchronised with the timeline of the assassination, and be attributed to him as the movements of a lone gunman. It's all very well for anyone to argue for a subsequent cover-up, but nobody could change what Oswald himself had been seen doing, or not doing, before JFK was shot, or as the events were unfolding, or immediately afterwards. How could he have been made to look like the guilty party, unless he had unwittingly co-operated in his own downfall with all the wrong moves at all the right times? How could the conspirators have known if he had played the part well enough, or given them an impossible task to set him up? Has anything like this ever happened, even within the realms of fiction?

Love,

Caz
X

Hello Caz,

It’s so wide ranging isn’t it? So many people would have had to have been willing to go along with it and to keep their mouths closed. And as you’ve said would they have involved a guy whose actions before and after they apparently had no control over and who couldn’t have acted in a more guilty manner if he’d tried. Dodgy packages, inexplicable behaviour and obvious lies before and after the event. And all involving an event of such earth shattering importance. I’m always concerned when we have to factor in stupidity to explain a theory.

[Herlock Sholmes]

HS is not keen on petty details: this after he presented us with 53 facts that prove Oswald’s guilt, amongst which included not reading a newspaper, leaving his jacket at work and not buying a cinema ticket!

As I explained, I posted it because I’d written it out ages ago. I thought that it was a fair summary. You focus on the three least significant points and yet you ignore the fact that Oswald lied about being in the first floor rest room? Or that a colleague saw him on the 6th floor a 11.55 when Oswald told him of his intention to remain their. Or of his leaving the scene or that he was probably the only person in Dallas who appeared not to know that the President was coming. These alone scream guilty.

Reiterating earlier claims does not make them stronger. Refusing to acknowledge points that conflict with a settled view in no way weakens them. The changing of the route was done at the last minute but the plan for Kennedy to visit Dallas was almost a year in the making. The reason for Oswald not to have an escape plan was because he was not the assassin. But he was supposed to be assassinated himself obviously.

Come on. How could any conspirators, 3 or 4 days after finding that the motorcade was now passing the TSBD, just happen to find a man who worked there and who was willing to co-operate? If he was meant to be assassinated (as Bugliosi suggested) why didn’t they have a car waiting to take him away to meet his death? Why did they have taking these illogical routes around Dallas, being at the scene of the murder of a random police officer before being arrested and potentially talking? How can anyone think this believable? It’s fantasy island stuff.

Here’s the big picture. A disaffected marine, judged by the Soviets to be a fake defector with a schoolboy command of Marxism, returns to his homeland to face no charges of desertion. He has been impersonated within the USA in his absence according to J. Edgar Hoover and is about to be so again later in Mexico City where he is once again identified by the Russian and Cuban authorities as a false friend. Six weeks later he allegedly shoots the POTUS, is questioned without record or counsel and executed inside the prison where he was being held. Both big events staged brazenly in front of TV cameras to drive home the long reach of those who conspired in regime change. I’m old enough to remember the events of Dallas 1963 and the world I live in today would have been some nightmare vision back then. But not for those who have prospered.

Fantasy. How was it a planned execution? Firstly, Ruby stopped off on the way at the Western Union office to send off some money. Any slight hold up or queue and it’s game over. When Oswald was being bought down he said that he was cold and wanted a jacket so they waited inside while an officer went to get it. If that hadn’t have happened Oswald would have been in the van and gone before Ruby got there. So that little assassination plot was just as crap as the plot to kill Kennedy.

it’s just not realistic.

[Abby Normal]

The rifle type issue is a non starter-as everyone has shown-it was simply mis identified at first.

If I was a JFK conspiracy theorist I would be arguing how possibly JFKs head jerks back and the piece of his skull both go backwards on impact when the fatal shot supposedly comes from behind?

[GBinOz]

If he was meant to be assassinated (as Bugliosi suggested) why didn’t they have a car waiting to take him away to meet his death?

You're missing the whole point. The aim was to establish him as a lone nut killer (a patsy) before disposing of him.
You are engaging in "If, But and Maybe" speculation. The witness evidence, medical evidence, crime scene forensic evidence, ballistic evidence and scientific evidence for more than one shooter is overwhelming (to use one of your favourite superlatives ).
More than one shooter = conspiracy!

[Joshua Rogan]

Here's a thought....

How many witnesses who heard the shots thought they all came from the same spot - be that the Grassy Knoll, Book Depository, or wherever - and how many thought they came from several directions?

[Herlock Sholmes]

You're missing the whole point. The aim was to establish him as a lone nut killer (a patsy) before disposing of him.
You are engaging in "If, But and Maybe" speculation. The witness evidence, medical evidence, crime scene forensic evidence, ballistic evidence and scientific evidence for more than one shooter is overwhelming (to use one of your favourite superlatives ).
More than one shooter = conspiracy!

I don’t accept that it’s overwhelming George. The likelihood of this kind of plot being considered never mind sustained is vanishingly small and the likelihood of these plotters being so useless makes it even less likely. Every single detail is disputed on both sides.

He lied about bringing the package to work. Evidence based.
He lied about being in the first floor rest room. Evidence based.
He left his money and wedding ring and said that he wouldn’t need a lift next day. Evidence based.
The order for the guns was in his handwriting. Evidence based.
He pretended to be unaware of Kennedy’s visit. Evidence based.
His prints were everywhere. Evidence based.
He failed a paraffin test. Evidence based.
He refused a lie detector. Evidence based.
He fled the scene. Evidence based.
He avoided his usual route to take a crazy, senseless one. Evidence based.
10 people ID’d him at the scene of the Tippit murder. Evidence based.
He had the revolver on him. Evidence based.
He hit a police officer and pulled his gun on him. Evidence based.
He own wife believed him guilty. Evidence based.
He deliberately omitted to mention living at Neely Street where the photo was taken. Evidence based.
He told someone 35 minutes before the assassination that he was staying on the 6th floor. Evidence based.

We’ve had barking mad theory after barking mad theory from accidental gunshots to shots from the storm drain to firing umbrella’s to the wounds being altered aboard Airforce One to Woody Harrelson’s dad and alcoholic ex-cops. We’ve so many people claiming to have pulled the trigger that if they all were true there’d have been fewer rifles at Gettysburg. How many shooters did Garrison eventually identify? Wasn’t it around a dozen? It’s a bandwagon imo. Every single conspiracy theorist claims that their evidence is overwhelming. No one likes boring, simple answers. People love the idea of shadowy groups pulling the strings.

How much evidence for guilt do we need apart from footage of him pulling the trigger. How could a single innocent man have manage to have made himself look so guilty? It was bordering on suicidal.

The fact is, and yes I’m repeating myself, is that if any one of these groups wanted to take out the President (which I still doubt) then they would have had recourses to hand. Trained killers. Quality weaponry. They’d would as far as possible cover every eventuality. They would have left absolutely zero to chance. Would they have bought a loser like Oswald into it? Of course they wouldn’t.

[Abby Normal]

You're missing the whole point. The aim was to establish him as a lone nut killer (a patsy) before disposing of him.
You are engaging in "If, But and Maybe" speculation. The witness evidence, medical evidence, crime scene forensic evidence, ballistic evidence and scientific evidence for more than one shooter is overwhelming (to use one of your favourite superlatives ).
More than one shooter = conspiracy!

hi George
Not necessarily. as you know I am sympathetic to (some) of your ideas as I think there is a good chance the fatal shot came from the GK/RRB (Grassy knoll/Rail road Bridge) area. But I also think oswald fired at least the shot (from the BD)that went through JFKs neck. But two shooters dosnt mean a conspiracy.

Oswald and the GK/RRB shooter could have been independent of each other. In this scenario, oswald is working completely alone, and another gunman, perhaps a mob hit and or disgruntled cuban ex-pat is also working alone.

[Abby Normal]

Here's a thought....

How many witnesses who heard the shots thought they all came from the same spot - be that the Grassy Knoll, Book Depository, or wherever - and how many thought they came from several directions?

HI JR
i dont know the details but there were def witnesses that said they heard/saw a shot coming from the GK/RRB.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Here's a thought....

How many witnesses who heard the shots thought they all came from the same spot - be that the Grassy Knoll, Book Depository, or wherever - and how many thought they came from several directions?

Josiah Thompson, who believes in two shooters, one in a high building and one at ground level, looked at the statements of 172 witnesses. 79% said that they heard 3 shots and 3.5% said that they heard 4.

According to the HSCA study of 178 witnesses 74.2% thought they heard 3 shots, 3.3% thought they heard 4.

In Thompson’s witness study 4 out of 172 thought that they heard shots from more than one direction. The HSCA had 4 out of 178. And the London Weekend Television mock trial had 5 out of 189.

Of Thompson’s witnesses who mentioned a location 52% identified the Grassy Knoll or the Triple Underpass, about 39% mentioned the TSBD.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just for the record I’m not completely deaf to the suggestion that Oswald ‘might’ have had some kind of partner-in-crime, a fellow disaffected oddball and that they decided to kill the President and that they’d shoot from different spots to increase the chances of success. Maybe the other guy wasn’t too bright and chose the poor location of the Knoll? So I might have considered Thompson’s updated book if it wasn’t so expensive.

But a conspiracy involving various agencies and a cover up….no.

[Abby Normal]

Just for the record I’m not completely deaf to the suggestion that Oswald ‘might’ have had some kind of partner-in-crime, a fellow disaffected oddball and that they decided to kill the President and that they’d shoot from different spots to increase the chances of success. Maybe the other guy wasn’t too bright and chose the poor location of the Knoll? So I might have considered Thompson’s updated book if it wasn’t so expensive.

But a conspiracy involving various agencies and a cover up….no.

agree. but interesting such a large percentage thought they heard it from tje grassy knoll.

refresh my memory herlock, along with the rifle, how many shell casings were found in the book depository?

[Joshua Rogan]

Josiah Thompson, who believes in two shooters, one in a high building and one at ground level, looked at the statements of 172 witnesses. 79% said that they heard 3 shots and 3.5% said that they heard 4.

According to the HSCA study of 178 witnesses 74.2% thought they heard 3 shots, 3.3% thought they heard 4.

In Thompson’s witness study 4 out of 172 thought that they heard shots from more than one direction. The HSCA had 4 out of 178. And the London Weekend Television mock trial had 5 out of 189.

Of Thompson’s witnesses who mentioned a location 52% identified the Grassy Knoll or the Triple Underpass, about 39% mentioned the TSBD.

Cheers HS, quick work. So, according to my calculations....over 97% of witnesses thought all the shots they heard (however many that was) came from one direction.
You'd think, if there were shots coming from multiple directions, that more people would have been able to tell.

[Joshua Rogan]

agree. but interesting such a large percentage thought they heard it from tje grassy knoll.

Curious, indeed. Many people outside the Depository ran that way; even those who actually saw the shooter in the sixth floor window did, seemingly because everyone else was doing it.

refresh my memory herlock, along with the rifle, how many shell casings were found in the book depository?

If I may....
There were three empty shell cases found on the floor in the "sniper's nest". And there was a live round in the breech of the rifle when that was found. I don't think it was recorded whether there were any more in the magazine.

[Herlock Sholmes]

agree. but interesting such a large percentage thought they heard it from tje grassy knoll.

refresh my memory herlock, along with the rifle, how many shell casings were found in the book depository?

They found three 6.5 millimetre casings scattered on the floor in the sniper’s nest area.