JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[FISHY1118]

The same rifle.

See post #235 even blind freddy can spot the difference. But wait, sorry i forgot ,you dont do research this stuff anymore .

[FISHY1118]

I just found this in an unmarked folder. I think that I did it with the intention of posting it when the thread initially started up. I’d forgotten that I had it. It’s from Reclaiming History and is just a summary of a short chapter where he lists 53 points that point to Oswald’s guilt. Apologies for the long post but I shortened it as much as I could.

1. Whenever Oswald asked Frazier to drive him to the Paine residence to see his wife and daughters it was on a Friday every single time. But the day the President was coming (a Friday) he asked for a lift on the Thursday.
2. Oswald told Frazier that he was going to pick up curtain rods for his room but Oswald’s landlady said that his room already had curtain rods. A photographer for Life called Allen Grant took a photo of Oswald’s room on the afternoon of the assassination which showed curtain rods already in place. When asked Marina Oswald said that her husband never mentioned curtain rods and none were found at the Book Depository and those who saw him after the assassination, like his landlady for one, said that he was carrying no parcel. So what happened to it if it was a parcel headed for his rooming house? Additionally Ruth Paine did have curtain rods in her garage but they were still there after the assassination and Oswald never mentioned them to her.
3. Frazier asked Oswald if he would be going home with him tomorrow (Saturday) too and he said ‘no.’
4. Both Oswald and Marina had a real interest in the Kennedy’s but whenever she brought up the subject on the Thursday evening he either ignored her or changed the subject which she thought was strange.
5. On the morning of the assassination Oswald left behind his wedding ring and around $170 telling her to get anything the children needed. Again she thought this strange because he hardly ever let her spend any money at all and $170 was probably all the money that he had.
6. Before getting into the car he placed the long bulky package on the back seat saying that it contained curtain rods.
7. Frazier noticed that for the first time ever Oswald wasn’t carrying his lunch.
8. When they arrived at the Depository Oswald picked up the package and dashed into the building. He was 50 yards ahead of Frazier when he entered. Frazier said that they always walked the 300 yards from the car to the building together.
9. Every morning Oswald went to a first floor room to read the previous mornings Dallas Morning News but not on the day of the assassination.
10. Despite Oswald being politically savvy and particularly interested in Kennedy and that everyone new that the President was coming why, between 9.30 and 10.00, did he ask James Jarman why there was a crowd gathering outside? Everyone knew of the President’s visit, except Oswald apparently. He also asked him which way the President was coming. Clearly trying to distance himself from any plan to kill.
11. After the second shot Howard Brennan looked up and saw a man in the window just 120 feet away. He’d seen the same person earlier before the motorcade arrived. At a line up that h evening he said that it looked like him but he couldn’t be certain because he’d since seen him on TV and that it could have “messed me up.” He was worried that it might have influenced him but he signed a positive affidavit an hour before the line up saying that he believed that he could identify the man that he’d seen. His description of the man matched Oswald. Before the WC he admitted that he could have positively identified it but he became worried that if it was known that he was an eyewitness he and his family might have been at risk.
12. Witnesses other than Brennan saw a rifle sticking out of that window and by that window the gun that was used was found along with three cartridge casings from that same weapon.
13. Depository employee Charles Givens said that around 11.55 he saw Oswald on the 6th floor. He asked Oswald if he was going downstairs as it was near lunchtime and he said ‘no.’ He was the only person on the 6th floor. When Oswald met Baker just after the assassination in the second floor lunch room he told him that he’d just come up from the first floor lunch room to get a coke from the machine. Bugliosi asked Gary Mack, who was in charge of the TSBD museum if there was another drinks machine and he said that he wasn’t aware of one but from the testimony of Williams who said that he got a Dr. Pepper (which the coke machine didn’t sell) and from talking to Frazier, he discovered that there was actually a Dr. Pepper machine in the first floor lunch room. He later found a photo of it. Frazier had only ever seen Oswald drink Dr Pepper and it was mentioned elsewhere that he favoured Dr Pepper. Frazier said that no one would have gone to the second floor to get a drink because they had their own machine in their first floor lunch room. So Oswald came from the 6th to the 2nd and not the 1st to the 2nd as he claimed.
14. Also, if he was on the first floor when everything kicked off and people were screaming and shouting just outside who would just stroll upstairs for a bottle of coke?
15. When they did a roll call after the assassination only Oswald and Givens were missing from the TSBD. Givens was later located. The ‘innocent’ Oswald had fled.
16. When he left the building Oswald walked straight passed the bus stop that he always used and that would have dropped him almost directly in front of his rooming house. Instead he walked on and eventually caught a bus that would have left him half a mile from his rooming house even though the very next bus would have taken him to his front door.
17. Although Oswald was interested in politics and Kennedy why did he not watch the motorcade or stick around after the assassination?
18. When his bus got caught up in traffic after a few blocks he immediately got off demonstrating that he was a man in flight. In law flight is considered as circumstantial evidence of a consciousness of guilt.
19. He then got into a cab and when the driver asked him what was going on Oswald didn’t reply. How many people in that position would have stayed completely silent?
20. Why did Oswald get the can driver to drop him 4 blocks past his rooming house leaving him to walk all of the way back? Is this the action of an innocent man?
21. When he got to his rooming house he dashed passed the housekeeper who said “oh you are in a hurry.” Oswald completely ignored her.
22. Would an innocent man have picked up his revolver? When asked by the police why he had done this he said “You know how boys do when they have a gun, they just carry it.” Yeah, that really makes sense!
23. He also changed his trousers. Why?
24. Two witnesses actually saw Oswald shoot and kill Tippit. One witness saw him approach Tippit’s car but then couldn’t see him because a shrubbery blocked his view but he heard the shots and saw Tippit fall and saw Oswald run away with a gun in his hand. Another witness heard the shots then saw Oswald running along the street. Two witnesses identified Oswald as the man who ran across their lawn immediately after the gun shots and a woman screaming. He had a gun in his hand and was unloading shells. Four men on a car lot identified Oswald as he ran past with a revolver in his hand. One woman identified Oswald as the man who walked past her at a fast pace. How many cases could you find where 10 eyewitnesses were all wrong?
25. Within minutes of Tippit’s murder Oswald was seen looking dishevelled and acting strangely on Jefferson Boulevard.
26. Oswald ducked into the theatre without buying a ticket.
27. When Oswald was arrested he said “well it’s all over now.” Strange thing for an innocent man to say?
28. He then struck the Officer and pulled his gun. Why if he hadn’t done anything? He had a recently fired gun on him though.
29. When arrested, Oswald wouldn’t give his name. Innocent people usually co-operate when arrested.
30. When Oswald was led down the hallway he made a clenched fist salute. Why would an innocent man do that?
31. Why did Oswald refuse to take a lie detector test? Ruby took one.
32. After Marina came away from visiting Oswald she said that she knew that he was guilty and that she could see it in his eyes. She also said that she knew that if he was innocent he’d have been screaming to high heaven about his ‘rights.’ Marina knew him better than anyone and a wife’s first instinct is usually to defend her husband and the family name. Who wouldn’t want to try and deny being the husband of the man who killed the President?
33. The gun found on the 6th floor was purchased by Oswald. The paperwork was in his handwriting. There was a photograph of him holding the gun taken by Marina. His palm print was in a place that could only be reached by someone who had disassembled the gun and fibres found on the gun by the FBI matched Oswald’s shirt perfectly.
34. Firearms identification experts from the WC and the HSCA concluded that the 2 bullet fragments found in the limousine came from Oswald’s gun to the exclusion of all others. Also that the bullet found on the stretcher (believed to have been the one that Connolly lay on) matched Oswald’s gun to the exclusion of all others.
35. Firearms experts determined that the 3 expended shells found in by the southeasternmost window were fired in and ejected from Oswald’s gun to the exclusion of all others.
36. A large brown handmade bag of wrapping paper and tape of sufficient size to contain the disassembled rifle was found next to the cartridge cases. Oswald’s left index fingerprint and right palm print were found on the bag.
37. Oswald’s left palm print and right index finger print were found on top of a book carton next to the window which was placed at a convenient level for a gun rest. The prints were pointing in the direction of the limousine. A print of his right palm was found on top of another carton.
38. The revolver was purchased by Oswald and the order was in his handwriting.
39. Firearms experts conclude that the 4 bullets recovered from Tippit’s body came from Oswald’s revolver.
40. Four expended cartridges were found near to Tippit’s body which were found to have come from Oswald’s gun to the exclusion of all others.
41. Oswald’s hands were subjected to a paraffin test by Dallas Police to see if he’d recently fired a revolver. The test was positive.
42. Oswald left his jacket behind in the TSBD.
43. Oswald put on his other jacket when he got back to his rooming house but he wasn’t wearing it when he was arrested. It was found underneath a car on the route to the Texas Theatre. Fibres from Oswald’s shirt were found in the jacket.
44. Oswald’s clip board was found on the 6th floor with 3 orders on it for the day of the assassination. Oswald hadn’t filled any of his orders. He must have been busy doing something else perhaps?
45. When interviewed the ‘innocent’ Oswald denied owning a rifle. Why, if it hadn’t been used to assassinate the President?
46. When showed the photograph taken by his wife of him holding the weapon he said that it wasn’t him.
47. He claimed that he’d never seen the photograph before despite handwriting experts saying that it was his writing on the back.
48. When Oswald was asked to list his residences he did so but omitted one address, Neely Street, where the photograph was taken. And this wasn’t just a memory lapse either because he added3 months to his stay at his previous address to cover the Neely Street period.
49. Oswald denied telling Frazier about the curtain rods.
50. He also denied putting the package on the back seat but Frazier sister saw him do it too.
51. Oswald told Captain Fritz that the only thing that he took to work was his sandwich.
52. He told Fritz that at the time of the murder he was in the First floor dining room with a man called Jarman and one other man. Jarman said that Oswald wasn’t there.
53. Oswald told Fritz that he bought the revolver in Forth Worth when he actually bought it mail order.

Let me guess all this from the Warren Commission yeah ,figures . Do you have any proof oswald fired the rifle they found ? , did anybody see him fire the weapon? ,

Point 12 is wrong on both counts btw especiallty where the rifle was found ,but you know that .

[DJA]

Heres the problem with all that dave , its easy to say that after such a long perion of time after the assassination, but focus on the day and the footage. Look at the rifle being removed from the tsbd and look at oswalds cancarno, the one they said he fired to kill kennedy , the one he ordered via mail order , the one with the serial number , and p.o box address receipt .? what do you see ?

Not overly fussed.
The kill shot came from the Grassy Knoll.
Was Oswald tested for gun shot residue?

If you really want to get into the case,search for correspondence before the nightmare on Elm Street eg from George Bush.

All the best buddy

[FISHY1118]

Not overly fussed.
The kill shot came from the Grassy Knoll.
Was Oswald tested for gun shot residue?

If you really want to get into the case,search for correspondence before the nightmare on Elm Street eg from George Bush.

All the best buddy

No worries Dave , but my post #235 list the differences if your interested . . cheers


Was he tested? . Depends, do you want the real answer as to the results of the test , or the Warren Comissions version ?

[cobalt]

Fishy,

I think there was a conspiracy but the danger of the Mauser/Carcano replacement theory is that it veers into the very reefs that HS has warned about. If the conspirators couldn’t even get the most basic element of the plot right- a rifle linked to Oswald on the 6^th floor- then how on earth did they pull it off? It’s a wonder they didn’t shoot Jackie Kennedy or LBJ by mistake!

I take on board your weapons knowledge which corresponds to the initial ID of a weapon found, but forging paperwork to establish a link with Oswald would have been less risky than roping in Dallas cops and the Paynes. I think the Carcano must have been there and been fired although that doesn’t rule out the Mauser: reliable witness Sam Holland, viewing from the overpass, was adamant he heard 4 shots.

HS,
Bugliosi’s list is more about quantity than quality and I remind you that no written or taped record was made during Oswald’s interrogation bar a few scratchy notes by, I think, Captain Fritz. Add to that Oswald’s repeated request to be given legal representation and I think his claim that he was being made a ‘patsy’ was pretty near the mark.

[GBinOz]

The kill shot came from the Grassy Knoll.
Was Oswald tested for gun shot residue?

Hi Dave,

Answer is yes and the result was negative, despite what Herlock has posted. Also, of the four bullets recovered from Tippet, two were .38 calibre fired from a revolver and two were 38acp fired from a semi-automatic pistol. The two cartridges are completely different and not interchangeable. To be absolutely clear, the two 38acp rounds could could not have been fired from a revolver.

Oh, and eighty eight witnesses agree with you that the entry wound was in the front near the temple and the exit at the lower right back of the head, plus eighteen doctors and pathologists. The latest acoustic analysis combined with high definition scans of the ZP show two head shots only a fraction of a second apart, one pinpointed as from the picket fence on the grassy knoll about eight feet from the corner, and one from the rear, producing debris patterns from the skull firstly to the side of the vehicle to the left and then to the front. There are diagrams towards the end of the YouTube video that I previously posted, here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8i-R3saBBs&ab_channel=ABC7NewsBayArea

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Fishy,

I think there was a conspiracy but the danger of the Mauser/Carcano replacement theory is that it veers into the very reefs that HS has warned about. If the conspirators couldn’t even get the most basic element of the plot right- a rifle linked to Oswald on the 6^th floor- then how on earth did they pull it off? It’s a wonder they didn’t shoot Jackie Kennedy or LBJ by mistake!

I take on board your weapons knowledge which corresponds to the initial ID of a weapon found, but forging paperwork to establish a link with Oswald would have been less risky than roping in Dallas cops and the Paynes. I think the Carcano must have been there and been fired although that doesn’t rule out the Mauser: reliable witness Sam Holland, viewing from the overpass, was adamant he heard 4 shots.

HS,
Bugliosi’s list is more about quantity than quality and I remind you that no written or taped record was made during Oswald’s interrogation bar a few scratchy notes by, I think, Captain Fritz. Add to that Oswald’s repeated request to be given legal representation and I think his claim that he was being made a ‘patsy’ was pretty near the mark.

The problem with the ‘I’m just a patsy’ quote is that it’s always edited by conspiracy theorists. They leave out the next line where Oswald claims that he’s only been arrested because he’d been in the Soviet Union.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Let me guess all this from the Warren Commission yeah ,figures . Do you have any proof oswald fired the rifle they found ? , did anybody see him fire the weapon? ,

Point 12 is wrong on both counts btw especiallty where the rifle was found ,but you know that .

Not all from the WC who, naturally, you believe were all criminally corrupt. Not only the committee members but all of the researchers and assistants involved. And the CIA and the FBI and the Police and the Government including the VP……all ‘in on it.’ If you want to believe that fantasy Fishy then it’s up to you, you have every right, but you shouldn’t assume that everyone that disagrees is either a liar or an idiot.

Proof that he fired the rifle? His rifle, his revolver…ordered by mail by him…..in his handwriting….a photograph of him holding the gun taken by his wife at an address that he himself tried too edit from the record. Two witnesses who saw him carrying a bulky package which he denied…..the packaging found on the 6th floor with his prints on…..his prints around the window and on the gun…..the revolver that killed Tippit on him when he was arrested…..10 witnesses who identified him……a positive paraffin test…….a palm print of his on the rifle in a location that could only have been accessed by someone who had disassembled the gun……he was alone on the 6th floor as per Givens…..he lied about being in the first floor dining room…………how much do you need?

A fraction of the evidence against him would have resulted in a guilty charge.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Dave,

Answer is yes and the result was negative, despite what Herlock has posted. Also, of the four bullets recovered from Tippet, two were .38 calibre fired from a revolver and two were 38acp fired from a semi-automatic pistol. The two cartridges are completely different and not interchangeable. To be absolutely clear, the two 38acp rounds could could not have been fired from a revolver.

Oh, and eighty eight witnesses agree with you that the entry wound was in the front near the temple and the exit at the lower right back of the head, plus eighteen doctors and pathologists. The latest acoustic analysis combined with high definition scans of the ZP show two head shots only a fraction of a second apart, one pinpointed as from the picket fence on the grassy knoll about eight feet from the corner, and one from the rear, producing debris patterns from the skull firstly to the side of the vehicle to the left and then to the front. There are diagrams towards the end of the YouTube video that I previously posted, here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8i-R3saBBs&ab_channel=ABC7NewsBayArea

Cheers, George

The paraffin test was positive George.

[Herlock Sholmes]

See post #235 even blind freddy can spot the difference. But wait, sorry i forgot ,you dont do research this stuff anymore .

I’m not a fantasist either.

[Joshua Rogan]

Georges post of that affidavit makes no mention of the northwest corner . Can you provide something a little more accurate .

Er. Yes it does. Let me transcribe the relevant lines;

"We were in the northwest corner of the sixth floor when Deputy Boone and myself spotted the rifle about the same time....The rifle was between some boxes near the stairwell"

[Herlock Sholmes]

My issue is that the big picture is ignored in the obsessive hunt for details that people can quibble over and the tendency to believe that error always equals something sinister. Surely if there’s one thing that we can all agree on is the magnitude of the undertaking? Even if there were groups that might have benefitted from Kennedy being removed this doesn’t mean that a conspiracy existed. A conspiracy to kill the President would have had potential consequences that can hardly be exaggerated not only for individuals but in terms of its effect on the country and its standing in the world. So from this, one thing that I take as an absolute definite is that the conspirators would have wanted a plan that was as near to fool proof as humanly possible with as few people as possible involved. Criminals even apply this principal to bank robberies so how much more necessary for the assassination of Kennedy?

So we have a few glaring issues that never seem to get addressed in the obsession with nitpicking. Would they really have used an oddball like Oswald with a WW2 rifle? Would they have been so clownish as to leave a different rifle lying around? Would they have used two weapons traceable to Oswald? Would they have completely omitted an escape plan which would have been easy to achieve? Would they have included a totally pointless murder of a police officer (adding more details and witnesses to be interrogated and doubted?) Would they have been so stupid as to putting a gunman behind the fence just feet from bystanders to say that they heard where the shots came from or even saw the shooter and in an area where they new that photographs (and film footage) would have been taken, potentially capturing the gunman? Could they have been so lucky as to find a guy who worked at a place that overlooked the route but that place was only included in the route when it was changed 3 or 4 days earlier? Would they have been confident of being able to control or manipulate the 100’s of witnesses and then find seven corrupt Warren Commissioners, one corrupt General Counsel, 14 corrupt assistant counsellors and 12 corrupt staff members, corrupt CIA, FBI and police officers and corrupt or incompetent technical experts. Is this really believable? Sorry, but not to me for a minute.

So they could either have done the above or they could have got one or two trained killers with top quality military weapons with a simple escape plan in place. Result, the President killed by some unknown looney or possibly hints of some shady members of a far right group like the Klan with a grudge against Kennedy’s backing for the Civil Rights movement. No conspiracy for people to get suspicious over, no one in high places at risk of discovery.

The problem with conspiracy is that it requires a reliance on either a staggering lack of care about consequences or a quite monumental level of stupidity. I just don’t buy it. It makes no sense.

[caz]

Not all from the WC who, naturally, you believe were all criminally corrupt. Not only the committee members but all of the researchers and assistants involved. And the CIA and the FBI and the Police and the Government including the VP……all ‘in on it.’ If you want to believe that fantasy Fishy then it’s up to you, you have every right, but you shouldn’t assume that everyone that disagrees is either a liar or an idiot.

Proof that he fired the rifle? His rifle, his revolver…ordered by mail by him…..in his handwriting….a photograph of him holding the gun taken by his wife at an address that he himself tried too edit from the record. Two witnesses who saw him carrying a bulky package which he denied…..the packaging found on the 6th floor with his prints on…..his prints around the window and on the gun…..the revolver that killed Tippit on him when he was arrested…..10 witnesses who identified him……a positive paraffin test…….a palm print of his on the rifle in a location that could only have been accessed by someone who had disassembled the gun……he was alone on the 6th floor as per Givens…..he lied about being in the first floor dining room…………how much do you need?

A fraction of the evidence against him would have resulted in a guilty charge.

Afternoon Herlock,

I'm always interested in how the conspiracy theorists believe this was all engineered, and what they think the logistics would have involved. Do they have Oswald in on the plot somehow, but just not firing the fatal shot, or perhaps no shots at all? If he was a completely unwitting 'patsy', there would have been no way for the conspirators to predict any of his movements that day, let alone control them in such a way that they could later be synchronised with the timeline of the assassination, and be attributed to him as the movements of a lone gunman. It's all very well for anyone to argue for a subsequent cover-up, but nobody could change what Oswald himself had been seen doing, or not doing, before JFK was shot, or as the events were unfolding, or immediately afterwards. How could he have been made to look like the guilty party, unless he had unwittingly co-operated in his own downfall with all the wrong moves at all the right times? How could the conspirators have known if he had played the part well enough, or given them an impossible task to set him up? Has anything like this ever happened, even within the realms of fiction?

Love,

Caz
X

[Aethelwulf]

Afternoon Herlock,

I'm always interested in how the conspiracy theorists believe this was all engineered, and what they think the logistics would have involved. Do they have Oswald in on the plot somehow, but just not firing the fatal shot, or perhaps no shots at all? If he was a completely unwitting 'patsy', there would have been no way for the conspirators to predict any of his movements that day, let alone control them in such a way that they could later be synchronised with the timeline of the assassination, and be attributed to him as the movements of a lone gunman. It's all very well for anyone to argue for a subsequent cover-up, but nobody could change what Oswald himself had been seen doing, or not doing, before JFK was shot, or as the events were unfolding, or immediately afterwards. How could he have been made to look like the guilty party, unless he had unwittingly co-operated in his own downfall with all the wrong moves at all the right times? How could the conspirators have known if he had played the part well enough, or given them an impossible task to set him up? Has anything like this ever happened, even within the realms of fiction?

Love,

Caz
X

Very good.

You don't have to look too hard on the net find examples of:

Stupid QAnon conspiracy theory
Stupid fake mood landings conspiracy
Stupid people believing you can catch covid from a 5G mast

So second shooter conspiracy = chicken feed

[cobalt]

HS is not keen on petty details: this after he presented us with 53 facts that prove Oswald’s guilt, amongst which included not reading a newspaper, leaving his jacket at work and not buying a cinema ticket!

Reiterating earlier claims does not make them stronger. Refusing to acknowledge points that conflict with a settled view in no way weakens them. The changing of the route was done at the last minute but the plan for Kennedy to visit Dallas was almost a year in the making. The reason for Oswald not to have an escape plan was because he was not the assassin. But he was supposed to be assassinated himself obviously.

Here’s the big picture. A disaffected marine, judged by the Soviets to be a fake defector with a schoolboy command of Marxism, returns to his homeland to face no charges of desertion. He has been impersonated within the USA in his absence according to J. Edgar Hoover and is about to be so again later in Mexico City where he is once again identified by the Russian and Cuban authorities as a false friend. Six weeks later he allegedly shoots the POTUS, is questioned without record or counsel and executed inside the prison where he was being held. Both big events staged brazenly in front of TV cameras to drive home the long reach of those who conspired in regime change. I’m old enough to remember the events of Dallas 1963 and the world I live in today would have been some nightmare vision back then. But not for those who have prospered.